The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
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02-08-2014, 12:26 PM
The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
I remember being in what should have been the best year of my life. I was 18, just out of high school, and recently moved to San Diego for work and college.

Most persons in their youth find themselves making life long friendships their first year of college. Many even see their intellectual ability launch to new heights. Many students have the ability to freely choose their classes and accept the education without irrationality.

And last but not least, they party, and have extra money to do fun things.

Not me. I spent most of my time begging repentance for fornication, enduring systematic mental abuse by my bishop who convinced me that the devil had me prisoner, and spent my time trying to redeem myself through missionary work.

I had not the ability to do many of the things my college peers would do. Ten percent of my income went to the church and another 50% went to saving for a mission. Luckily, I had the opportunity to spend some money to enjoy time with my girlfriend (now wife).

I often entered classes with extreme cognitive dissonance. I loved school, I loved science, but since I "knew" that science could "lead me away from religion and into Satan's grasp," I found a terrible time accepting a lot of the course work. But my mind could not resist. The evidence was present and the answers were real answers, unlike in religion where answers are questions in disguise.

But never the less, I started to feel more guilty due to my acceptance of scientific fact and my apprehension towards religious sorcery.

Religion and science do not mix. One must pick one or the other, they do not rationally or reasonably blend with one another.

Ugh, what a terrible time my first year out of high school was. My money was taken from me, my intellectual freedom was non-existent, and my church was systematically brain washing me into the idea of a "full time mission" and the idea that my body and mind has been captured by the devil through fornication and masturbation.

When I look back at it, I should have just lied. I should have just been like the rest of the 18 year old boys ready to go on a mission. All of them fornicated, all of them masturbated, and a lot of them did much more. I should have just lied to get my 2 year mission and make my family proud.

But I couldn't, I had to tell the truth. After all, this is my salvation, this is the bishop of the lord who is interviewing me, and this is God's church. How can I lie? How could I live with myself?

Well, I couldn't, eventually I landed my self in a psychiatric hospital 2 months after I should have left on my two year mission.

I was in a terrible place, and having a terrible time...but luckily, I'm glad I did. Otherwise I would have wasted 2 years of my life preaching others into the same system that had manipulated me.

The Mormon Church certainly is a terrible institution.

And here is my point: I am out of church, out of religion, out of God...but it pains me to see those who are still trapped, mindfully or not.

1) My grandparents are spending the rest of their life repenting for the time in their life in which they were not Mormon.

2) My mother always feels guilty and self -conscious for no real reason.

3) My aunt will spend the rest of her life trying to redeem herself from her youthful sin.

4) My uncle will stay with his abusive wife because "god told him to."

5) My parents will feel guilty for their atheist son (me) and will forever be looking for the place "where we went wrong."

6) It is likely that my grandma-in-law will soon pass away due to her diabetes because she no longer uses medicine because God "healed" her though her last doctors appointment shows her diabetes are out of control.

7) My sister-in-law will forever avoid secular psychiatric/therapy help because some dumb ass preacher said all she needs is God and the bible.

8) My brother in-law will forever be unhappy, jumping from church to church, looking for something he will never find.

and the list goes on...and on...and on.

Then their is the world wide list regarding past and present events of disease and war perpetuated by religious reasoning.

Some days this really pains me. It hurts me to see people suffer. It hurts me to see family and peers run around in mental pain because of their abusive establishments.

And the worst part is, they may never see their doubts through, they may never be truly free.

How to I improve the living of those around me? Rational arguments don't work. Evidence doesn't work. What works?

Will the world ever be free from religious manipulation?

Call me terrible, call me unjust, call me evil, call me anti-american. But I would not mind if the government systematically destroyed all existing religions, as long as the safety and well being of its members were guaranteed. Destroy the buildings, and save the people.

That's just how I feel about it right now. I'm pretty depressed. Probably because my family will be here in an hour to visit...it often brings up so much emotion. Good emotion, empathetic emotion. I wish they would save themselves from their own misery.

Fuck the Mormon Church....

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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02-08-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
[img]but it pains me to see those who are still trapped, mindfully or not. [/img]

Yeah that really hurts. When you have lived with insanity and following irrational precepts and fairytales for years and willing to lay your life down and be martyred for them, it just doesn't go away. It becomes ingrained in you and a part of who you are. Like herpes it keeps returning and flaring up. Like chemical dependency, the temptations to go back to that lifestyle seem to never go away.

I came to Atheist forums to get help with that.
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02-08-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
So instead of being hostile or intimidated by theists, unbelievers should have pity and compassion on them as you would anybody who is sick, or whose life is controled are ruined by an infirmity or disorder.

consequently , I get very disappointed when I see on an online forum or anywhere, unbelievers rejecting those who are very new to this unknown lifestyle of freedom from religion.
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02-08-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
I want to say that I think technically the root of all pain and suffering is mankind. People get bored, people want power, people tend to do whatever improves their state of life. For some people, that means stepping on other people's fingers and doing whatever they must to ensure that they are the dominate one. While not everyone wants people to suffer, there's plenty of people that don't give a shit and plenty of people that get by in life having people suffer at their expense. Religion is just a common tool people use for power and status. I suppose all of that really is my own opinion but then again, I don't know if "the root of all pain and evil" is capable of having a real and specific answer.

But still, I'd like to say as well FUCK THE MORMON CHURCH!
[Image: gif54.gif]

The religion that makes it sound like you have a choice to serve a mission while it's only the woman that have the choice. Sure, men have the choice but the pressure on their shoulders practically forces them into it. If you don't serve, whether to be in the military or because you simply don't want to, eyes of judgement constantly follow you and people will always wonder how you screwed up so you couldn't or didn't want to serve a mission. Somehow that one person not building up god's army is a shame and a blemish on their family name. Not only that but it teaches that no other religion is right and that no other religion will get the full benifit of heaven. Really? None of my loving, giving friends that are so happen Baptist or Catholic can't get the eternal reward because they didn't believe in a current prophet on the earth? And don't get me started on how they glorify ol' Joe. I mean, you look at him in the church and he's almost immortal. I mean of course he is! I mean, no one has done more for the world other than Joseph Smith except Jesus Christ ! He can't have screwed up or had a few wives! Oh and we did have polygamy? Did Joseph have more that one wife? No he did but wait he did? Oh that was okay then. You see back then it was just because there were more women at the time and they needed to go into the higher level of heaven and BULLSHIT GOD LOOK AT ME RAMBLE ARG BULLSHIT I DON'T CARE HOW HANDSOME THE MAN LOOKS IN MARBLE AND ALL FORMS OF ART HE STILL STARTED BULLSHIT THAT SOMEHOW SPREAD WORLD WIDE! Seriously though, everywhere in the world?! How do you believe in a religion that is so clearly American oriented? I still don't get it.

Alright I'm done I'm just done I'm stopping here nope nope if you want more you can listen to Mormon Expression and listen to podcast because they point out stuff and they're nice and organized and explain things better just go because I'm stopping before I keeping going
[Image: 2v2ux5c.jpg]

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02-08-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
(02-08-2014 12:31 PM)Wicked Clown Wrote:  [img]but it pains me to see those who are still trapped, mindfully or not. [/img]

Yeah that really hurts. When you have lived with insanity and following irrational precepts and fairytales for years and willing to lay your life down and be martyred for them, it just doesn't go away. It becomes ingrained in you and a part of who you are. Like herpes it keeps returning and flaring up. Like chemical dependency, the temptations to go back to that lifestyle seem to never go away.

I came to Atheist forums to get help with that.

Perhaps you need to feel existentially happy by looking at both positions dispassionately (it's not easy) or opt for one or the other.....as many do.
Jumping from one band wagon to the other doesn't really work, unless you can develop some sort of synthesis.
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02-08-2014, 03:07 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
(02-08-2014 02:22 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  I want to say that I think technically the root of all pain and suffering is mankind. People get bored, people want power, people tend to do whatever improves their state of life. For some people, that means stepping on other people's fingers and doing whatever they must to ensure that they are the dominate one. While not everyone wants people to suffer, there's plenty of people that don't give a shit and plenty of people that get by in life having people suffer at their expense. Religion is just a common tool people use for power and status. I suppose all of that really is my own opinion but then again, I don't know if "the root of all pain and evil" is capable of having a real and specific answer.

But still, I'd like to say as well FUCK THE MORMON CHURCH!
[Image: gif54.gif]

The religion that makes it sound like you have a choice to serve a mission while it's only the woman that have the choice. Sure, men have the choice but the pressure on their shoulders practically forces them into it. If you don't serve, whether to be in the military or because you simply don't want to, eyes of judgement constantly follow you and people will always wonder how you screwed up so you couldn't or didn't want to serve a mission. Somehow that one person not building up god's army is a shame and a blemish on their family name. Not only that but it teaches that no other religion is right and that no other religion will get the full benifit of heaven. Really? None of my loving, giving friends that are so happen Baptist or Catholic can't get the eternal reward because they didn't believe in a current prophet on the earth? And don't get me started on how they glorify ol' Joe. I mean, you look at him in the church and he's almost immortal. I mean of course he is! I mean, no one has done more for the world other than Joseph Smith except Jesus Christ ! He can't have screwed up or had a few wives! Oh and we did have polygamy? Did Joseph have more that one wife? No he did but wait he did? Oh that was okay then. You see back then it was just because there were more women at the time and they needed to go into the higher level of heaven and BULLSHIT GOD LOOK AT ME RAMBLE ARG BULLSHIT I DON'T CARE HOW HANDSOME THE MAN LOOKS IN MARBLE AND ALL FORMS OF ART HE STILL STARTED BULLSHIT THAT SOMEHOW SPREAD WORLD WIDE! Seriously though, everywhere in the world?! How do you believe in a religion that is so clearly American oriented? I still don't get it.

Alright I'm done I'm just done I'm stopping here nope nope if you want more you can listen to Mormon Expression and listen to podcast because they point out stuff and they're nice and organized and explain things better just go because I'm stopping before I keeping going
[Image: 2v2ux5c.jpg]
Yes all that ego and disenchantment makes for many Christian denominations, cults and sects......a few thousand in fact.
Not to mention Jones Town,the Camp Davidians et al.

Old Joe and the LDS have their special niche of sorts................Facepalm
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02-08-2014, 10:03 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
(02-08-2014 02:22 PM)Miss Suzanne Wrote:  I want to say that I think technically the root of all pain and suffering is mankind. People get bored, people want power, people tend to do whatever improves their state of life. For some people, that means stepping on other people's fingers and doing whatever they must to ensure that they are the dominate one. While not everyone wants people to suffer, there's plenty of people that don't give a shit and plenty of people that get by in life having people suffer at their expense. Religion is just a common tool people use for power and status. I suppose all of that really is my own opinion but then again, I don't know if "the root of all pain and evil" is capable of having a real and specific answer.

But still, I'd like to say as well FUCK THE MORMON CHURCH!
[Image: gif54.gif]

The religion that makes it sound like you have a choice to serve a mission while it's only the woman that have the choice. Sure, men have the choice but the pressure on their shoulders practically forces them into it. If you don't serve, whether to be in the military or because you simply don't want to, eyes of judgement constantly follow you and people will always wonder how you screwed up so you couldn't or didn't want to serve a mission. Somehow that one person not building up god's army is a shame and a blemish on their family name. Not only that but it teaches that no other religion is right and that no other religion will get the full benifit of heaven. Really? None of my loving, giving friends that are so happen Baptist or Catholic can't get the eternal reward because they didn't believe in a current prophet on the earth? And don't get me started on how they glorify ol' Joe. I mean, you look at him in the church and he's almost immortal. I mean of course he is! I mean, no one has done more for the world other than Joseph Smith except Jesus Christ ! He can't have screwed up or had a few wives! Oh and we did have polygamy? Did Joseph have more that one wife? No he did but wait he did? Oh that was okay then. You see back then it was just because there were more women at the time and they needed to go into the higher level of heaven and BULLSHIT GOD LOOK AT ME RAMBLE ARG BULLSHIT I DON'T CARE HOW HANDSOME THE MAN LOOKS IN MARBLE AND ALL FORMS OF ART HE STILL STARTED BULLSHIT THAT SOMEHOW SPREAD WORLD WIDE! Seriously though, everywhere in the world?! How do you believe in a religion that is so clearly American oriented? I still don't get it.

Alright I'm done I'm just done I'm stopping here nope nope if you want more you can listen to Mormon Expression and listen to podcast because they point out stuff and they're nice and organized and explain things better just go because I'm stopping before I keeping going
[Image: 2v2ux5c.jpg]

Wow, I'm assuming you had quite the experience with the religion? Am I wrong?

"A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be."- Albert Einstein.

"We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something very special." Steven Hawking
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03-08-2014, 03:32 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
(02-08-2014 03:07 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Yes all that ego and disenchantment makes for many Christian denominations, cults and sects......a few thousand in fact.
Not to mention Jones Town,the Camp Davidians et al.

Old Joe and the LDS have their special niche of sorts................Facepalm
Yeah for sure. And I'm sure that of course Christianity isn't the only guilty party but they at least seem to be the most...what's the word I'm looking for...loud? Annoying? Something like.

For sure. I suppose it's a little humble reminder that there's no place in the world immune to bullshit! Yay it's not just America! Aww...it's not just America...that means there's no escape Weeping



(02-08-2014 10:03 PM)Quantum1Connect Wrote:  Wow, I'm assuming you had quite the experience with the religion? Am I wrong?

I grew up Mormon but I was never Molly Mormon. It allowed me to look it from an outside perspective though as I got older and away from the kind, loving ward I grew up in. Made me really mad with all I read about the church and seeing the church and it's members for what they really were. Lucky for me, I never did anything in the temple other than a few baptisms. Maybe one day I'll clear my records though though I have no idea how to pull that off.

My beef with the whole attitude missionary thing comes from the fact that my brother (2 years old than me) decided to go straight into the Navy after high school instead of mission then Navy. Our ward was nice and would ask how he was doing when he was away and whatnot and was nice to my mom and my family. When he would come home for a few weeks at a time, he would drive me to the single's ward. His old high school friends would talk to him but non of the girls would look in his direction with him in his dress blues. I mean, I saw the way those ladies looked at him if the looked at him. It was like to them he was scum or wasn't worth their time, save the effort to see if he would be a good eternal companion. He's a nice guy and very friendly. It was just the mere fact that he decided to serve his country before his church that they didn't like. I mean, in general, who wants a man that stuck it out four years fighting and traveling and serving when you can have a guy that went to a new place talking to people for two years?

I suppose it wouldn't be surprising to know that via experiences in the Navy, he was loosing his faith just as I got me some reason in college. When his service was finished and he moved into his own house, we'd rarely go somewhere. If we did go somewhere, we would talk about it. We both remembered that Gordon B. Hinckley said that serving in the military was just as honorable as serving a mission and so we were baffled about these people being assholes to him.The real kicker though was that when he was finished with his five years in the Navy. He was going to our ward for a little bit, just to be nice to Mom who really wanted him to go to church (and was a little pushy about). People were telling him he should have went on a mission or should think about going on a mission. One person flat out told him to sell his house and go on a mission. Don't blame my brother when he practically yelled in the chapel, "I've been serving for five years, I don't want to go on anymore fucking missions!" And that was that. He didn't go to our ward anymore and eventually stopped going to the ward closer to his home. Imagine why.

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03-08-2014, 04:18 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
(02-08-2014 12:26 PM)Quantum1Connect Wrote:  I remember being in what should have been the best year of my life. I was 18, just out of high school, and recently moved to San Diego for work and college.

Most persons in their youth find themselves making life long friendships their first year of college. Many even see their intellectual ability launch to new heights. Many students have the ability to freely choose their classes and accept the education without irrationality.

And last but not least, they party, and have extra money to do fun things.

Not me. I spent most of my time begging repentance for fornication, enduring systematic mental abuse by my bishop who convinced me that the devil had me prisoner, and spent my time trying to redeem myself through missionary work.

I had not the ability to do many of the things my college peers would do. Ten percent of my income went to the church and another 50% went to saving for a mission. Luckily, I had the opportunity to spend some money to enjoy time with my girlfriend (now wife).

I often entered classes with extreme cognitive dissonance. I loved school, I loved science, but since I "knew" that science could "lead me away from religion and into Satan's grasp," I found a terrible time accepting a lot of the course work. But my mind could not resist. The evidence was present and the answers were real answers, unlike in religion where answers are questions in disguise.

But never the less, I started to feel more guilty due to my acceptance of scientific fact and my apprehension towards religious sorcery.

Religion and science do not mix. One must pick one or the other, they do not rationally or reasonably blend with one another.

Ugh, what a terrible time my first year out of high school was. My money was taken from me, my intellectual freedom was non-existent, and my church was systematically brain washing me into the idea of a "full time mission" and the idea that my body and mind has been captured by the devil through fornication and masturbation.

When I look back at it, I should have just lied. I should have just been like the rest of the 18 year old boys ready to go on a mission. All of them fornicated, all of them masturbated, and a lot of them did much more. I should have just lied to get my 2 year mission and make my family proud.

But I couldn't, I had to tell the truth. After all, this is my salvation, this is the bishop of the lord who is interviewing me, and this is God's church. How can I lie? How could I live with myself?

Well, I couldn't, eventually I landed my self in a psychiatric hospital 2 months after I should have left on my two year mission.

I was in a terrible place, and having a terrible time...but luckily, I'm glad I did. Otherwise I would have wasted 2 years of my life preaching others into the same system that had manipulated me.

The Mormon Church certainly is a terrible institution.

And here is my point: I am out of church, out of religion, out of God...but it pains me to see those who are still trapped, mindfully or not.

1) My grandparents are spending the rest of their life repenting for the time in their life in which they were not Mormon.

2) My mother always feels guilty and self -conscious for no real reason.

3) My aunt will spend the rest of her life trying to redeem herself from her youthful sin.

4) My uncle will stay with his abusive wife because "god told him to."

5) My parents will feel guilty for their atheist son (me) and will forever be looking for the place "where we went wrong."

6) It is likely that my grandma-in-law will soon pass away due to her diabetes because she no longer uses medicine because God "healed" her though her last doctors appointment shows her diabetes are out of control.

7) My sister-in-law will forever avoid secular psychiatric/therapy help because some dumb ass preacher said all she needs is God and the bible.

8) My brother in-law will forever be unhappy, jumping from church to church, looking for something he will never find.

and the list goes on...and on...and on.

Then their is the world wide list regarding past and present events of disease and war perpetuated by religious reasoning.

Some days this really pains me. It hurts me to see people suffer. It hurts me to see family and peers run around in mental pain because of their abusive establishments.

And the worst part is, they may never see their doubts through, they may never be truly free.

How to I improve the living of those around me? Rational arguments don't work. Evidence doesn't work. What works?

Will the world ever be free from religious manipulation?

Call me terrible, call me unjust, call me evil, call me anti-american. But I would not mind if the government systematically destroyed all existing religions, as long as the safety and well being of its members were guaranteed. Destroy the buildings, and save the people.

That's just how I feel about it right now. I'm pretty depressed. Probably because my family will be here in an hour to visit...it often brings up so much emotion. Good emotion, empathetic emotion. I wish they would save themselves from their own misery.

Fuck the Mormon Church....

Oh, that's really heavy stuff you're dealing with. I'm so sorry.

Perhaps if you can compartmentalize your life by separating your past from the present, your family from who you are today, also you might need some counseling specific to religious deconversion. I've read that it helps many people.

Your experience is so foreign to me as I grew up in an atheist household. But it sure pains me to hear stories like yours. I just can't imagine.

In the mean time expressing your feelings here on a forum is good for you.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-08-2014, 04:40 PM
RE: The root of all pain and suffering: religion.
Guilt and fear, fear and guilt, guilt and fear. These are the most powerful tools of religion, trapping you in this vicious cycle, you can be glad you are free from this, it is a precious and rare insight that has freed you from this cycle. Maybe others will gain courage from your path to come out of religion, but you ultimately have to just live your life. Maybe you can be instrumental in helping someone else to be free, if it happens, great, if not; at least you're still free.

I've already lost a long-time friend because he's an ardent fundamentalist. Who knows, maybe years from now he'll gain a measure of sanity and we'll be friends again. Who knows what life holds in store on the path you have chosen, but at least you have truth on your side.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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