The sanctity of life
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04-03-2016, 09:47 AM
RE: The sanctity of life
Someone will have to define "sacred" before I go any further.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-03-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 09:47 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Someone will have to define "sacred" before I go any further.

[Image: quote-sacred-adj-dedicated-to-some-relig...3-0333.jpg]

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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04-03-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 09:47 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Someone will have to define "sacred" before I go any further.

That's up to you. I just threw common phrases out there because I am curious as to where discussing them would lead. I think it will eventually lead to "value".

Perhaps life has the value you yourself give it.

Or does it have the value your significant others (including kids) give it.

Or does it have the value the local laws give it.

So then, who has the right to end it? Does anyone have the right to end it? You certainly don't have a voice in whether you want to begin it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
To me "precious" means that I value something a lot. My use of that word as a comparison to "sacred" was to highlight the difference between value and some religious absolute.

My children are precious, someone else's children are precious. My dog is precious. I value them all. But I'll be honest some of them rank higher than the others & I'll take differing actions to defend them. I have my "value" decision tree based on my own internal yet to be defined rule set not an external book or religion.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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04-03-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:01 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  To me "precious" means that I value something a lot. My use of that word as a comparison to "sacred" was to highlight the difference between value and some religious absolute.

My children are precious, someone else's children are precious. My dog is precious. I value them all. But I'll be honest some of them rank higher than the others & I'll take differing actions to defend them. I have my "value" decision tree based on my own internal yet to be defined rule set not an external book or religion.

So, is it "Not all life is precious" or Not all life is equally precious" ?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
I dont think I would say life is sacred. Id say important because it is such a rare thing.
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04-03-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:27 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I dont think I would say life is sacred. Id say important because it is such a rare thing.

You musty mean rare as in the universe.

Because it's certainly not rare on this planet....

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2016, 12:37 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 12:41 PM by Hobbitgirl.)
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:27 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I dont think I would say life is sacred. Id say important because it is such a rare thing.

You musty mean rare as in the universe.

Because it's certainly not rare on this planet....

Yes I mean the universe. The chances of you being alive, or that spider, or that sea slug in the grand scheme of this universe is SO small, that makes it spectacular, and important. And rare. But not sacred.
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04-03-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 10:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 09:47 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Someone will have to define "sacred" before I go any further.

That's up to you. I just threw common phrases out there because I am curious as to where discussing them would lead. I think it will eventually lead to "value".

Perhaps life has the value you yourself give it.

Or does it have the value your significant others (including kids) give it.

Or does it have the value the local laws give it.

So then, who has the right to end it? Does anyone have the right to end it? You certainly don't have a voice in whether you want to begin it.

Yes, life should be valued. We shouldn't intentionally do things that bring harm. But as humans, and being complex creatures that we are, people often place different values to things.

We also, sometimes don't consider consequences to our actions.

Should people be allowed to end their lives? I feel within reason yes. I think if someone is terminal, or brain dead, when the quality of life is so very diminished that there is no "life". In those cases it should be up to the individual or family to decide when it should end.

I use my grandmother's case as an example. She had issues with dementia, it came on sort of quickly (the really batshit stuff), but had been spiraling downward for a good number of years before this. She would be forgetful about things -- to some extent we all do that.

Eventually when they realized she had completely stopped taking her medications, at the hospital, they also suspected she might have ovarian cancer. She had complained of pain. She refused a biopsy.

This was a woman who had said repeatedly she wanted to die and was ready for "jesus to call her home". She was also 89.

Her well-meaning friends and family there (I was excluded from these discussions) decided with her to call hospice services. She wrote three rather large 10k checks to several family members and died three days later. The hospice never administered any medications for pain, they did withhold her regular medications for a heart condition that she had for years. They also withheld food and I assume liquids.

The handwriting on those checks were impeccable. Her signature was perfect.

When her death certificate was issued, family wanted to know what it said the cause of death was. It read congestive heart failure as the cause. No mention at all of the technically undiagnosed cancer.

Her family (cousins, godson, nieces and a nephew) were floored by this. They all asked why the cause of death wasn't cancer? Quite simply it's not what killed her.

Honestly, I wasn't fussed by any of it. Her quality of life was so diminished, she had to restrained to keep her from wondering. At the hospital she belted a nurse. This was no longer my grandmother, as far as I was concerned.

But I believe my grandmother chose to end her life. I think that with the speculative diagnosis of cancer, her 2 friends and family (that again I'm excluded from) were willing to let her go. I had zero objections to any of it.

Having said all this, since our mental health care in this country specifically is so poor, it needs to be improved greatly before I would be persuaded.

I was hoping that when Robin Williams took his life (after decades of addiction and depression issues that were well documented) we could have that discussion about mental health BUT TOO many people became incredibly dismissive saying he was physically ill, so that made it ok.

I can only hope that the next well-loved, much respected actor who decides to off themselves doesn't have an underlying medical condition so that some people can feel good about dismissing the death and the lack of decent mental health care in this country.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-03-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:55 AM)Dom Wrote:  That's up to you. I just threw common phrases out there because I am curious as to where discussing them would lead. I think it will eventually lead to "value".

Perhaps life has the value you yourself give it.

Or does it have the value your significant others (including kids) give it.

Or does it have the value the local laws give it.

So then, who has the right to end it? Does anyone have the right to end it? You certainly don't have a voice in whether you want to begin it.

Yes, life should be valued. We shouldn't intentionally do things that bring harm. But as humans, and being complex creatures that we are, people often place different values to things.

We also, sometimes don't consider consequences to our actions.

Should people be allowed to end their lives? I feel within reason yes. I think if someone is terminal, or brain dead, when the quality of life is so very diminished that there is no "life". In those cases it should be up to the individual or family to decide when it should end.

I use my grandmother's case as an example. She had issues with dementia, it came on sort of quickly (the really batshit stuff), but had been spiraling downward for a good number of years before this. She would be forgetful about things -- to some extent we all do that.

Eventually when they realized she had completely stopped taking her medications, at the hospital, they also suspected she might have ovarian cancer. She had complained of pain. She refused a biopsy.

This was a woman who had said repeatedly she wanted to die and was ready for "jesus to call her home". She was also 89.

Her well-meaning friends and family there (I was excluded from these discussions) decided with her to call hospice services. She wrote three rather large 10k checks to several family members and died three days later. The hospice never administered any medications for pain, they did withhold her regular medications for a heart condition that she had for years. They also withheld food and I assume liquids.

The handwriting on those checks were impeccable. Her signature was perfect.

When her death certificate was issued, family wanted to know what it said the cause of death was. It read congestive heart failure as the cause. No mention at all of the technically undiagnosed cancer.

Her family (cousins, godson, nieces and a nephew) were floored by this. They all asked why the cause of death wasn't cancer? Quite simply it's not what killed her.

Honestly, I wasn't fussed by any of it. Her quality of life was so diminished, she had to restrained to keep her from wondering. At the hospital she belted a nurse. This was no longer my grandmother, as far as I was concerned.

But I believe my grandmother chose to end her life. I think that with the speculative diagnosis of cancer, her 2 friends and family (that again I'm excluded from) were willing to let her go. I had zero objections to any of it.

Having said all this, since our mental health care in this country specifically is so poor, it needs to be improved greatly before I would be persuaded.

I was hoping that when Robin Williams took his life (after decades of addiction and depression issues that were well documented) we could have that discussion about mental health BUT TOO many people became incredibly dismissive saying he was physically ill, so that made it ok.

I can only hope that the next well-loved, much respected actor who decides to off themselves doesn't have an underlying medical condition so that some people can feel good about dismissing the death and the lack of decent mental health care in this country.

Well, if I had been him I would have also killed myself asap.

Quote:Dementia with Lewy bodies

Disease

Dementia with Lewy bodies, also known as Lewy body dementia, diffuse Lewy body disease, cortical Lewy body disease, and senile dementia of Lewy type, is a type of progressive neurodegenerative dementia closely associated with Parkinson's disease primarily affecting older adults. Its primary feature is cognitive decline, which can lead to hallucinations, as well as varied attention and alertness when compared to a person's baseline function.

He was diagnosed with this shortly before he killed himself.

Parkinsons with dementia - not my idea of living. No mental illness needed. I would definitely exit.

I agree though that we still have not overcome the stigma attached to mental illness and we don't take good care of mental patients.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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