The sanctity of life
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04-03-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:37 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:34 PM)Dom Wrote:  You musty mean rare as in the universe.

Because it's certainly not rare on this planet....

Yes I mean the universe. The chances of you being alive, or that spider, or that sea slug in the grand scheme of this universe is SO small, that makes it spectacular, and important. And rare. But not sacred.

So, what does it mean that it is important? To whom? Why? Does this importance affect us?

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 01:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:37 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Yes I mean the universe. The chances of you being alive, or that spider, or that sea slug in the grand scheme of this universe is SO small, that makes it spectacular, and important. And rare. But not sacred.

So, what does it mean that it is important? To whom? Why? Does this importance affect us?

I can only speak for myself. Its important because of its rarity, for lack of a better word its like a gift to get to experience life. We should take this into consideration before we take life from something else.

Though I suppose to others it may not be important.

I havent put much thought into the grand scheme of things I guess.
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04-03-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 01:13 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 01:05 PM)Dom Wrote:  So, what does it mean that it is important? To whom? Why? Does this importance affect us?

I can only speak for myself. Its important because of its rarity, for lack of a better word its like a gift to get to experience life. We should take this into consideration before we take life from something else.

Though I suppose to others it may not be important.

I havent put much thought into the grand scheme of things I guess.

I am just opinion mining. I am curious.

All kinds of issues arise from this "sanctity of life" thing.

The pro-lifers, a lot of vegans (not all), the "death with dignity" issue, suicide, keeping brain dead people alive in hospitals, when to pull the plug of your relative and so forth.....

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-03-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
Sooner or later you get down to neurological firmware.
(statistically varying neurological firmware)

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04-03-2016, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 03:00 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 01:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:50 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Yes, life should be valued. We shouldn't intentionally do things that bring harm. But as humans, and being complex creatures that we are, people often place different values to things.

We also, sometimes don't consider consequences to our actions.

Should people be allowed to end their lives? I feel within reason yes. I think if someone is terminal, or brain dead, when the quality of life is so very diminished that there is no "life". In those cases it should be up to the individual or family to decide when it should end.

I use my grandmother's case as an example. She had issues with dementia, it came on sort of quickly (the really batshit stuff), but had been spiraling downward for a good number of years before this. She would be forgetful about things -- to some extent we all do that.

Eventually when they realized she had completely stopped taking her medications, at the hospital, they also suspected she might have ovarian cancer. She had complained of pain. She refused a biopsy.

This was a woman who had said repeatedly she wanted to die and was ready for "jesus to call her home". She was also 89.

Her well-meaning friends and family there (I was excluded from these discussions) decided with her to call hospice services. She wrote three rather large 10k checks to several family members and died three days later. The hospice never administered any medications for pain, they did withhold her regular medications for a heart condition that she had for years. They also withheld food and I assume liquids.

The handwriting on those checks were impeccable. Her signature was perfect.

When her death certificate was issued, family wanted to know what it said the cause of death was. It read congestive heart failure as the cause. No mention at all of the technically undiagnosed cancer.

Her family (cousins, godson, nieces and a nephew) were floored by this. They all asked why the cause of death wasn't cancer? Quite simply it's not what killed her.

Honestly, I wasn't fussed by any of it. Her quality of life was so diminished, she had to restrained to keep her from wondering. At the hospital she belted a nurse. This was no longer my grandmother, as far as I was concerned.

But I believe my grandmother chose to end her life. I think that with the speculative diagnosis of cancer, her 2 friends and family (that again I'm excluded from) were willing to let her go. I had zero objections to any of it.

Having said all this, since our mental health care in this country specifically is so poor, it needs to be improved greatly before I would be persuaded.

I was hoping that when Robin Williams took his life (after decades of addiction and depression issues that were well documented) we could have that discussion about mental health BUT TOO many people became incredibly dismissive saying he was physically ill, so that made it ok.

I can only hope that the next well-loved, much respected actor who decides to off themselves doesn't have an underlying medical condition so that some people can feel good about dismissing the death and the lack of decent mental health care in this country.

Well, if I had been him I would have also killed myself asap.

Quote:Dementia with Lewy bodies

Disease

Dementia with Lewy bodies, also known as Lewy body dementia, diffuse Lewy body disease, cortical Lewy body disease, and senile dementia of Lewy type, is a type of progressive neurodegenerative dementia closely associated with Parkinson's disease primarily affecting older adults. Its primary feature is cognitive decline, which can lead to hallucinations, as well as varied attention and alertness when compared to a person's baseline function.

He was diagnosed with this shortly before he killed himself.

Parkinsons with dementia - not my idea of living. No mental illness needed. I would definitely exit.

I agree though that we still have not overcome the stigma attached to mental illness and we don't take good care of mental patients.


Obviously you've missed entirely my point.

I made it pretty clear that I hope the next well loved, respected actor with a long history of mental illness/depression who decides to commit suicide DOES NOT have any underlying medical condition that prevents the public from having a serious discussion about quality of mental health care in this country.

His death could have shown a bright light on those who suffer from depression.

ETA: http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...2866FCB4E6


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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04-03-2016, 03:01 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
I've pondered what inspires and drives those ideas as well. It's something that doesn't firmly seem as something I wholeheartedly agree to, especially the type of sentiments of the 2nd sentence.

I'm not not a fan of these markings on a personal or mental manner. On the social order/contract manners sure, but one doesn't dictate the other in all ways to view the ideas.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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04-03-2016, 03:19 PM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 03:27 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The sanctity of life
Sacred is not the right word. Precious is not the right word. Fascinating maybe? Or maybe fixating?

The older I get the more I am reminded of Johnson and Sartre.

“Depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he is to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully.” - Samuel Johnson

“The absurd man will not commit suicide; he wants to live, without relinquishing any of his certainty, without a future, without hope, without illusions … and without resignation either. He stares at death with passionate attention and this fascination liberates him. He experiences the 'divine irresponsibility' of the condemned man.” - Sartre.

(04-03-2016 02:52 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  His death could have shown a bright light on those who suffer from depression.




#sigh
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04-03-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 12:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:01 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  To me "precious" means that I value something a lot. My use of that word as a comparison to "sacred" was to highlight the difference between value and some religious absolute.

My children are precious, someone else's children are precious. My dog is precious. I value them all. But I'll be honest some of them rank higher than the others & I'll take differing actions to defend them. I have my "value" decision tree based on my own internal yet to be defined rule set not an external book or religion.

So, is it "Not all life is precious" or Not all life is equally precious" ?

Both. Not all life is precious to me. Do I give a damn about ticks? No way even though deep down I am sure they fill some essential part of the ecosystem or perhaps they are simply a parasite whose absence wouldn't impact another species. Plants? no feelings whatsoever for them other than recognition that they are important to life on the planet and the role they play.
and
Not all life is equally precious as I explained earlier. I feel bad about the bird that hit my window and died but I won't reflect on it after I've disposed of it. To take it further, a child somewhere on earth died while I wrote this post. The family is probably heartbroken but to me not sacred and not precious. If I had the power to stop it, sure I would, but I can't. Only "god" can and we all know their track record.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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04-03-2016, 03:28 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 02:52 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 01:02 PM)Dom Wrote:  Well, if I had been him I would have also killed myself asap.


He was diagnosed with this shortly before he killed himself.

Parkinsons with dementia - not my idea of living. No mental illness needed. I would definitely exit.

I agree though that we still have not overcome the stigma attached to mental illness and we don't take good care of mental patients.


Obviously you've missed entirely my point.

I made it pretty clear that I hope the next well loved, respected actor with a long history of mental illness/depression who decides to commit suicide DOES NOT have any underlying medical condition that prevents the public from having a serious discussion about quality of mental health care in this country.

His death could have shown a bright light on those who suffer from depression.

ETA: http://www.save.org/index.cfm?fuseaction...2866FCB4E6

Ok, I misread that.

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04-03-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: The sanctity of life
(04-03-2016 03:23 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 12:24 PM)Dom Wrote:  So, is it "Not all life is precious" or Not all life is equally precious" ?

Both. Not all life is precious to me. Do I give a damn about ticks? No way even though deep down I am sure they fill some essential part of the ecosystem or perhaps they are simply a parasite whose absence wouldn't impact another species. Plants? no feelings whatsoever for them other than recognition that they are important to life on the planet and the role they play.
and
Not all life is equally precious as I explained earlier. I feel bad about the bird that hit my window and died but I won't reflect on it after I've disposed of it. To take it further, a child somewhere on earth died while I wrote this post. The family is probably heartbroken but to me not sacred and not precious. If I had the power to stop it, sure I would, but I can't. Only "god" can and we all know their track record.

Far as I can tell there is nothing in the eco system that doesn't play some role. But that's besides the point. Personally, as someone who has survived undiagnosed Lyme disease, I hate the buggers more than anything.

So, are you pro choice or pro life? When I see discussions of that topic for instance, I repeatedly see them getting hung up on when life starts.

So, do you think that life starts at conception, or when the brain stem has developed, or when it becomes viable? And is that the point where that life becomes - precious or sacred or important or whatever we want to call this?

Or is there even an objective point or is it all subjective?

I am not defending or attacking any viewpoints, just looking for opinions here.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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