The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
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16-01-2012, 12:16 AM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(10-01-2012 02:55 PM)The_observer Wrote:  I'm probably completely wrong but... follow me here

Imagine we had no concept of a 3d dimension. Now, imagine we where on top of a large sphere. (why not earth?). If we would keep walking, we would end up on the same spot. That would be weird to us but we could deduce a third dimension in which we travelled that enables us just to do that thing.

Now, I always picture our universe the same as in the story above but only with one more dimension. No matter in what direction we travel... up, down, left, right... We will eventually end up on the same spot.

Is this the truth... I might never know... but it helps me a lot.

side-note: No matter where you stand in this universe, you are always in the centre... This nicely explains some peoples attitude Big Grin

The most interesting theory I've heard is that perhaps the big bang did not come from nothing. But perhaps with string theory explaining that perhaps that there are many other dimensions that we cannot yet comprehend fully that came from these other dimensions. Perhaps something happened within that and is what caused the big bang in the first place.

So perhaps on a much larger scale... had the big bang come from something else, of course the universe (as we know it) has an edge since it obviously is expanding. So if something must expand, then one must follow that if it were to be taken to a rewind, that at some point it had a beginning, so of course there must be an edge. But perhaps where the big bang came from is even larger than that. What if our big bang (if all of these other dimensions exist) is perhaps only one, and beyond the limitation of our singularity there are many many others? Perhaps... if we could understand it, if these theories become applied and can eventually explain it, the reality of it all will be far more shattering and larger to comprehend than we could expect.

Speculation only. But such questions always enter my mind when we try to think of just how large it really is. We've only scratched the surface of how large it is and how it works.

It is truly fascinating, isn't it?
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18-01-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
I watched a video about the universe coming from nothing with Dr. Krauss. He said the universe could come from nothing but he also said nothing isn't nothing. empty space was a bubbling brew of virtual particles that pop in and out of existence. Isn't it misleading to say the universe came from nothing? I would think that the quantum fields and virtual particles aren't nothing but they are phenomena that exist. Absolute nothingness wouldn't have quantum fields, virtual particles, gravity or anything. I know virtual particles can't be measured directly but they have been proven to exist. Some scientists recently created a photon from a vitural photon. The theory is that with enough energy you can make other particles from their vitural counterparts. I guess something from a fake nothing but not absolute nothingness.

Anyone have some thoughts on that?
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18-01-2012, 04:52 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(18-01-2012 04:33 PM)Jasrace Wrote:  I watched a video about the universe coming from nothing with Dr. Krauss. He said the universe could come from nothing but he also said nothing isn't nothing. empty space was a bubbling brew of virtual particles that pop in and out of existence. Isn't it misleading to say the universe came from nothing? I would think that the quantum fields and virtual particles aren't nothing but they are phenomena that exist. Absolute nothingness wouldn't have quantum fields, virtual particles, gravity or anything. I know virtual particles can't be measured directly but they have been proven to exist. Some scientists recently created a photon from a vitural photon. The theory is that with enough energy you can make other particles from their vitural counterparts. I guess something from a fake nothing but not absolute nothingness.

Anyone have some thoughts on that?


I get what you are saying. It's really up to a person's definition of nothing. It's a difficult concept to grasp for a person who knows what strings and quarks are. Not to mention being aware of the multiverse theory and possible other dimensions. To someone with no knowlege of quantum physics a jar filled with oxygen is a jar with nothing in it.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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18-01-2012, 05:04 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(18-01-2012 04:52 PM)germanyt Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 04:33 PM)Jasrace Wrote:  I watched a video about the universe coming from nothing with Dr. Krauss. He said the universe could come from nothing but he also said nothing isn't nothing. empty space was a bubbling brew of virtual particles that pop in and out of existence. Isn't it misleading to say the universe came from nothing? I would think that the quantum fields and virtual particles aren't nothing but they are phenomena that exist. Absolute nothingness wouldn't have quantum fields, virtual particles, gravity or anything. I know virtual particles can't be measured directly but they have been proven to exist. Some scientists recently created a photon from a vitural photon. The theory is that with enough energy you can make other particles from their vitural counterparts. I guess something from a fake nothing but not absolute nothingness.

Anyone have some thoughts on that?


I get what you are saying. It's really up to a person's definition of nothing. It's a difficult concept to grasp for a person who knows what strings and quarks are. Not to mention being aware of the multiverse theory and possible other dimensions. To someone with no knowlege of quantum physics a jar filled with oxygen is a jar with nothing in it.

More accurately:
To someone with no knowlege of chemistry, a jar filled with oxygen is a jar with nothing in it.
To someone with no knowlege of quantum physics, a jar filled with vacuum is a jar with nothing in it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-01-2012, 11:27 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
Great point Chas. Exactly. Nothing isn't nothing. There is always something. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, smell it or touch it does not mean that the "nothing" isn't /something/ Smile No matter what the scale is.
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19-01-2012, 08:24 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(18-01-2012 11:27 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Great point Chas. Exactly. Nothing isn't nothing. There is always something. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, smell it or touch it does not mean that the "nothing" isn't /something/ Smile No matter what the scale is.

That is why I feel that the term nothingness is only a concept of the mind and it is not possible in reality.
It is also bugs me when I hear theoretical physicists say that String Theory or M-Theory could be a theory of everything. How? That only explains why our universe or particular bubble in a much larger multiverse is the way it is, not what makes up the strings or what laws of nature cause them to behave the way they do. Not sure if you could ever get to true nature of what is reality because some of the info is unknowable for us.
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19-01-2012, 09:26 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(19-01-2012 08:24 PM)Jasrace Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 11:27 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Great point Chas. Exactly. Nothing isn't nothing. There is always something. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, smell it or touch it does not mean that the "nothing" isn't /something/ Smile No matter what the scale is.

That is why I feel that the term nothingness is only a concept of the mind and it is not possible in reality.
It is also bugs me when I hear theoretical physicists say that String Theory or M-Theory could be a theory of everything. How? That only explains why our universe or particular bubble in a much larger multiverse is the way it is, not what makes up the strings or what laws of nature cause them to behave the way they do. Not sure if you could ever get to true nature of what is reality because some of the info is unknowable for us.

Some of the information may be unknowable. It's an unknown unknown.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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19-01-2012, 09:37 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(19-01-2012 09:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(19-01-2012 08:24 PM)Jasrace Wrote:  
(18-01-2012 11:27 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Great point Chas. Exactly. Nothing isn't nothing. There is always something. Just because we cannot see it, feel it, smell it or touch it does not mean that the "nothing" isn't /something/ Smile No matter what the scale is.

That is why I feel that the term nothingness is only a concept of the mind and it is not possible in reality.
It is also bugs me when I hear theoretical physicists say that String Theory or M-Theory could be a theory of everything. How? That only explains why our universe or particular bubble in a much larger multiverse is the way it is, not what makes up the strings or what laws of nature cause them to behave the way they do. Not sure if you could ever get to true nature of what is reality because some of the info is unknowable for us.

Some of the information may be unknowable. It's an unknown unknown.

True and that sucks.
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19-01-2012, 09:50 PM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
Hopefully it won't be forever an unknown within our lifetime. Smile
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20-01-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: The shape of the universe and what is at it's edge. Turn your noggins on.
(19-01-2012 09:50 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Hopefully it won't be forever an unknown within our lifetime. Smile

I think science will come to a dead end or for maybe every question answered another question arises. So we find out we live in 3 dimensions of a larger 11 dimension universe. How could we ever explain why there are 11 dimensions and not some other odd number? The laws of physics in our 3 dimensions don't apply to the other dimensions. So our theory of everything will not be a theory of everything, it will be a theory of most things up until a certain point, then who knows?
I'm sure theorical physicists could/can explain M-theory or String theory up to a point but then how can they explain what makes up strings and what laws governs them?
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