The sin nature of man
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23-11-2015, 07:28 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
The doctrine of Orginal Sin exist to answer this question. Humans were created in God's image. Why aren't human imperfect (obviously we are not). The answer, we fucked up at some point and that led us to become imperfect which then led us to live in a imperfect world. If we didn't fucked up, we would be perfect beings living in a perfect creation. Now, if we obey really closely to God, despite our imperfections, he will let us back into the perfect world (AKA heaven) and allow us to became perfect again. If we do not try to please God and are proud of our imperfection, he will definitly condamn us to an even less perfect world (AKA hell). Now, you can question the how, what and why made us imperfect in the first place and who is responsible for all that mess. You can also question the fact that we obviously were not created at God's own image, never were perfect in the first place and bla bla bla, but thats just your knowledge of science and morality built over hundreds of years that's talking. Revert back to this time of humanity when everything was magical from the wind the seasons, the mouvement of the stars, diseases, animal behavior, natural catastrophy to the very fonction of our body and you will see how this doctrine can make any sense. Try to apply it with our understanding of the world and it's just a little moralistic fable to warn us of the danger of pride and the cost of knowledge and responsability.

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23-11-2015, 02:06 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
The Organic Chemist
So last night, my ADD brain was doing it's thing and a post from yesterday that brought up the sin nature of man. This got me thinking about how we get it.
Alla
Oh, great thinking. Too bad you were thinking about it for a wrong reason. Wrong reason - you don't care what the answer is. You are looking for a "got you" questions for Christians.

In order to know how we get it, you have to know what "the sin nature of man" is. I assume you know this.
In order to know what "the sin nature of man" is, you have to know what "spiritual man" is and what "natural man" is. I assume you know this.

You also have to know what "their eyes were opened" has to do with spiritual man and with natural man. I assume you know this.

If you don't, I more than happy to share this information with you.

The Organic Chemist
Even further, how did the act of eating a magic apple screw with Adam's baby batter
Alla
It didn't. The fruit(not apple) changed something else in Adam's and Eve's body. Hint: no flesh and blood can enter God's kingdom

The Organic Chemist
Why do christians think that the sin nature of man can override a supernatural force from a perfect being?
Alla
I don't know why they think this. I guess they have no idea what "the sin nature of man" is. As they have no idea about many other important things.
Oh, and what is "supernatural"? no prophet mentioned this word.

The Organic Chemist
How would simply removing this impurity change anything in the freewill department (if that even exists)? Wouldn't removing it show a much higher level of love and affection than just simply letting the fire you started keep burning?
Alla
Good questions. But first you have to know what "the sin nature of man" is. You also have to know why God created Adam and Eve. I assume you know this.
If you don't, I am more than happy to share with you this information

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23-11-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
"Sin" is a superstitious word.

Human behavior is evolutionary, both the compassionate acts and the cruel acts. Morality in our species is basically the empathetic side where we seek cooperation and avoid harming others. Religion simply takes what is evolutionary and turns it into a comic book and uses a fictional sky wizard to threaten use into conformity.

Rape is natural, in that it unfortunately CAN result in an unwanted pregnancy. But, from the victims perspective it is certainly physically harmful and emotionally traumatic. And even the family members react negatively to such an act because that victim is an emotional resource to that family.

Rape as religion calls it a sin, has only been recently watered down to a more liberal view in "don't harm others", but again, when you read the bible, in the context of the time it was written in the "sin" was not violation of the women/girl, it was damage of family property.

Same with slavery, western liberals cherry pick the bible to justify compassion and call it a "sin", but again, there is no ban on slavery in the bible, the "sin" of slavery amounts to property damage.

The real reason you don't rape or own slaves is because humans evolved with empathy for others. The reason rape and slavery were condoned for a long time is because the tribal gang manual told them only not to do it to their own tribe.

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23-11-2015, 08:02 PM (This post was last modified: 23-11-2015 08:11 PM by Alla.)
RE: The sin nature of man
Q: What is the sin nature of man?
A: Nobody knows. May be there is no such thing as "the sin nature of man"? I wonder where this idea about "the sin nature of man" comes from?

Before Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he couldn't sin. He could transgress the law of God but I repeat he couldn't sin. He didn't know what sin was. He didn't know what righteousness was. Symbolically it is called "his eyes were not opened yet". There was no sin in the world before Adam's fall.
There is the difference between transgression and sin.

After Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he entered fallen state.
What does it mean? It means he became mortal man. He was immortal, he became mortal and subject to sin. As soon as Adam's eyes were opened he knew what sin was. Sin entered this world and death entered this world. So, Adam became subject to sin.
This is what we "inherited": we(Adam's posterity) are mortal men(fallen state) and we are subjects to sin. We sin. We also transgress laws. We are born in the world where there is sin.

We don't inherit any sin nature. We are born innocent but mortal(in fallen state). But because this world is also fallen and we are mortal(in fallen state) we can LEARN about good and evil, we don't need fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Our yes can be opened without fruit.
There is also spiritual man and natural man. We are can be both.
Spiritual man in us wants to do good and he is selfless. Natural man in us is carnal and selfish. That is why we can sin.
If we were not mortal we wouldn't be natural men, we would be only spiritual men.
Adam was not natural man before fall. He couldn't be. He didn't know what sin was.

P.S. Most likely you don't understand what I am talking about.

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23-11-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
Popcorn
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24-11-2015, 02:50 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Q: What is the sin nature of man?
A: Nobody knows. May be there is no such thing as "the sin nature of man"? I wonder where this idea about "the sin nature of man" comes from?

Before Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he couldn't sin. He could transgress the law of God but I repeat he couldn't sin. He didn't know what sin was. He didn't know what righteousness was. Symbolically it is called "his eyes were not opened yet". There was no sin in the world before Adam's fall.
There is the difference between transgression and sin.

After Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he entered fallen state.
What does it mean? It means he became mortal man. He was immortal, he became mortal and subject to sin. As soon as Adam's eyes were opened he knew what sin was. Sin entered this world and death entered this world. So, Adam became subject to sin.
This is what we "inherited": we(Adam's posterity) are mortal men(fallen state) and we are subjects to sin. We sin. We also transgress laws. We are born in the world where there is sin.

We don't inherit any sin nature. We are born innocent but mortal(in fallen state). But because this world is also fallen and we are mortal(in fallen state) we can LEARN about good and evil, we don't need fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Our yes can be opened without fruit.
There is also spiritual man and natural man. We are can be both.
Spiritual man in us wants to do good and he is selfless. Natural man in us is carnal and selfish. That is why we can sin.
If we were not mortal we wouldn't be natural men, we would be only spiritual men.
Adam was not natural man before fall. He couldn't be. He didn't know what sin was.

P.S. Most likely you don't understand what I am talking about.

Most everyone here understands what you're talking about? How in this westernized culture could you think otherwise, that's the most generic of stated concepts. Unless you just misconstrue your meaning again, but I'd also add most people also understand that's just a ancient interpretation that reflects nothing of modern humanity. It's just a view that has developed over 2000 years of doctrinal altering & hermeneutics. Though it's also understood there is no evidence anything like this reflects reality of human forms.

When does this transition happen? Isn't eating the fruit sinning? So isn't he entirely capable of sinning? If he is actually eating and in the process of taking a bite and eating the fruit, the supposed things that can only happen AFTER he does it are occurring before.

The inherit concept is always amusing, because it doesn't quite qualify that you aren't inheriting the sin's of your parents that occurred after they already had you. It's not like this idea was forged in some genetic value. It's really a social-economical pattern where people had to take on their family legacy and what stood before them as their name in these types of cultures.

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24-11-2015, 06:00 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 06:21 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: The sin nature of man
(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Q: What is the sin nature of man?
A: Nobody knows. May be there is no such thing as "the sin nature of man"? I wonder where this idea about "the sin nature of man" comes from?

Before Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil he couldn't sin. He could transgress the law of God but I repeat he couldn't sin. He didn't know what sin was. He didn't know what righteousness was. Symbolically it is called "his eyes were not opened yet". There was no sin in the world before Adam's fall.
There is the difference between transgression and sin.

This is basically like discussing "Who shot first? Han or Greedo?" It's talking about myth, so there's that.

So transgressing God's law isn't sin according to this myth? If you're saying that sin requires foreknowledge of what transgressing God's law is, then Adam had foreknowledge, God told him not to eat the magic fruit, this is pretty clear. That's foreknowledge, Adam had full knowledge of what not to do, so that was sin.

I doubt even your Mormon cohorts would agree with your attempts to parse here.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-11-2015, 06:07 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  We don't inherit any sin nature. We are born innocent but mortal(in fallen state). But because this world is also fallen and we are mortal(in fallen state) we can LEARN about good and evil, we don't need fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Our yes can be opened without fruit.
There is also spiritual man and natural man. We are can be both.
Spiritual man in us wants to do good and he is selfless. Natural man in us is carnal and selfish. That is why we can sin.
If we were not mortal we wouldn't be natural men, we would be only spiritual men.
Adam was not natural man before fall. He couldn't be. He didn't know what sin was.
Bowing


1) Adam had physical components, a.k.a ribs, which was used to create Eve. So are ribs natural or spiritual?

2) If I assume Adam and Eve were spiritual, then spiritual beings are perfectly capable of committing sins right? The only difference would be that they do so without knowing

3) If said spiritual beings didn't possess the sense of good and evil, then how would they only want to do "good"?

4) If we are born sin free, then this world corrupts us, then what exactly has changed before and after Jesus? Were babies before Jesus born evil?

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24-11-2015, 06:44 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  Q: What is the sin nature of man?
A: Nobody knows. May be there is no such thing as "the sin nature of man"? I wonder where this idea about "the sin nature of man" comes from?
Because if we aren't sinning the parasitic clergy are out of a job. It's the stick part of the carrot-&-stick of religion.

(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is what we "inherited": we(Adam's posterity) are mortal men(fallen state) and we are subjects to sin. We sin. We also transgress laws. We are born in the world where there is sin.
We are a species of evolved primates. While we are (likely) the most evolved species on the planet, we are still far from perfect. We have numerous physical and mental flaws. We are often malicious, greedy and petty, although at times we show great compassion, empathy and love.

While I inherited the genetic aspects of my nature from my ancestors, I refuse to be held accountable for their sins.

I am not responsible for my father's sins, his father's sins, or the sins of anyone else all the way back to adam. (who didn't exist, BTW...)

(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  We don't inherit any sin nature.
I'm not sure what religion you follow, but the catholic church specifically teaches that we are born with original sin and that baptism washes that away. The protestants (Calvinists?) teach that we are all destined for hell no matter what we do.

(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is also spiritual man and natural man. We are can be both.
Many people define the spiritual or the supernatural as something that cannot be defined, measured, understood, etc. by science. The result is that terms like spiritual mean literally whatever the speaker wants them to mean, and the definitions vary from speaker to speaker.

(23-11-2015 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  P.S. Most likely you don't understand what I am talking about.
That is an incredibly arrogant statement.

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24-11-2015, 07:36 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
Adam and Eve are a myth. Other religions much older also have their "first person" motifs. Humans are not a result of any religion, humans are a result of evolution. Religious stories that convey gap answers that are not the scientific reality, only prove that humans have vivid imaginations.

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