The sin nature of man
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24-11-2015, 07:38 AM
RE: The sin nature of man
And to the Christians, just so you know, Jews don't see Eve as the first woman.

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24-11-2015, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 12:36 PM by Alla.)
RE: The sin nature of man
I will answer these questions because I really like them.

Aoi Magi
1) Adam had physical components, a.k.a ribs, which was used to create Eve. So are ribs natural or spiritual?[/quote]
Alla
Ribs are physical bones. I knew it will be hard to understand what I was saying. I will try to explain better. Words "spiritual" and "natural" are symbols.
When we say "spiritual man" or "natural man" we talk about dual nature of mortal or fallen men.
We have spirit and we have flesh, bones and blood. When our spirit dominates our flesh we are selfless and we don't think about pleasing ourselves. We can put interests of others before our own interests. In these moments we act like spiritual men.
When our flesh dominates our spirit we are selfish. We do only what is pleasing to us. We put our own interests before interests of others. In these moments we act like carnal men. Or we call it "natural men".
Adam fell. It means he became mortal man. It calls "fallen state". Before fall, Adam was innocent and immortal. All his children are born mortal(fallen state). We are born in the world that has sin(evil). Adam lived in the world where there was not sin(evil) before he transgressed the law.


Aoi Magi
2) If I assume Adam and Eve were spiritual, then spiritual beings are perfectly capable of committing sins right? The only difference would be that they do so without knowing
Alla
No they are not capable of committing sin. If you read my second post you will see that I said this: Adam could not sin, he transgressed the law. There is the difference.
Sin is when you know and understand that what you do is bad/wrong/evil, but you do it any way. You are not innocent.
Adam didn't know and didn't understand that to obey law is bad/wrong/evil. He did it as an innocent little child would disobey his/her parent (stick a finger in an outlet).
When we break laws and we don't know it or we don't understand it, we are not accountable before God. That is why God did not punish Adam and Eve. What happened to them after partaking of the fruit was part of God's plan and not a punishment as many wrongly think. Fall of Adam is very, very important and it was a blessing to Adam and Eve and to all of us..

Aoi Magi
3) If said spiritual beings didn't possess the sense of good and evil, then how would they only want to do "good"?
Alla
Adam and Eve didn't want to do good. They didn't know that good is good. Before fall Adam and Eve couldn't do neither good(righteousness) nor evil(sin). Anything they did (including partaking of the forbidden fruit) was neutral.
If Adam and Eve didn't fall, didn't transgress the law, plan of God would fail and Adam and Eve would never progress.

Aoi Magi
4) If we are born sin free, then this world corrupts us, then what exactly has changed before and after Jesus?
Alla
This is what change: all children of God have to come to this corrupt world. We are not suppose to come to perfect world. Not because of Adam but because corrupt traditions of men we become corrupt, we sin. If we sin we can't come back to God. No unclean thing can be in presence of God. We have to be cleansed.
Atonement provides this cleansing.
Now I will try in few words to explain what change(even though it is hard to explain in few words).
If Jesus didn't atone we would never be able to be resurrected from the dead and return to God. Doesn't matter how good we are or how horrible we are, we would all be doomed for ever. Repentance would have no meaning.
But when we repent and try to be better people, we can be cleansed by the atonement. Sorry, if you don't understand yet what I am saying. It is not your fault.
It is because "few words" are not enough to explain well everything.

Aoi Magi
Were babies before Jesus born evil?
Alla
No, nobody is born evil. We are born as innocent and clean. But we are born in fallen state. It means only one thing - we all come her to experience physical death. We are mortal. We have blood. Blood makes us carnal. Adam and Eve didn't have blood before they partook of the fruit. It made them immortal.
Because of the atonement all people who died before Jesus was born can repent is spirit world and accept Jesus as their Savior. Jesus atoned for them also. They will be resurrected from the dead because of Jesus. This is what changed because of Jesus. Without Him they would never live again

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24-11-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
I want to explain better what the Atonement changes

Before the Atonement and after the Atonement all people have to come to this corrupt(fallen) world to obtain physical bodies and to have new experiences and to learn and to grow. This is plan of God. Without experiences good and evil nobody can have progression(eternal progression).
If Adam and Eve didn't partake of the fruit of good and evil, they would remain in state of innocence forever and they would never have an opportunity to learn by making choices between good and evil, and they wouldn't be able to progress.

Because it is important to live in corrupt world and corrupt world (for sure) will corrupt us, we need Savior - someone who cleans us.
It doesn't matter when we are born/live - before the Atonement of after, we all will be saved from death(we all will resurrect from the dead). We all may be cleansed from the sin if we repent and if we obey God's laws to the best of out understanding/ability. God's law's are instructions of what we have to do to become perfect as Gods.

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24-11-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 07:38 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  And to the Christians, just so you know, Jews don't see Eve as the first woman.

That's OK. Jews don't know much about Eve. They don't know about important role she played in God's plan. I am very proud of Eve.
P.S. They don't even know why God created Adam and Eve in the first place. They don't even know why God created the Earth.

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24-11-2015, 12:53 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 12:27 PM)Alla Wrote:  When we break laws and we don't know it or we don't understand it, we are not accountable before God. That is why God did not punish Adam and Eve.What happened to them after partaking of the fruit was part of God's plan and not a punishment as many wrongly think. Fall of Adam is very, very important and it was a blessing to Adam and Eve and to all of us..

Hmmmm.....

Quote:The Book of Genesis
14 And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life.
15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall cursh thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.
16 To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
17 And to Adam he said: Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee, that thou shouldst not eat, cursed is the earth in thy work: with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life.
18 Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth.
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou
shalt return.

I dunno, somebody sounds pretty pissed in that text.

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24-11-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 12:53 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I dunno, somebody sounds pretty pissed in that text.
You don't know how it sounds. You can't hear the voice.
God didn't say that He was angry at Adam and Eve. He didn't say that He punishes them.
But what happened to them was finally, finally an entering the world where there is not only good but bad: pain, suffering, death, etc.

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24-11-2015, 01:12 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
I was wondering if/when you'd show up.

(23-11-2015 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Organic Chemist
So last night, my ADD brain was doing it's thing and a post from yesterday that brought up the sin nature of man. This got me thinking about how we get it.
Alla
Oh, great thinking. Too bad you were thinking about it for a wrong reason. Wrong reason - you don't care what the answer is. You are looking for a "got you" questions for Christians.

How the hell do you know what I was thinking it for? Quite presumptuous and pompous of you to even think highly of yourself enough to assume the possibility that you can know what the motive was. If you must know, it was a genuine question. Don't assume you know someone's personal life without them telling you, you look like an arrogant ass. Unlike you, I DO care about the answer. Just because I don't arrive at the conclusion that you think it should be doesn't in any way mean that I don't care about what is real. Again, an arrogant, pompous statement on your part. Even if the question is a "gotcha" the reason for thinking it up is completely irrelevant. It still is a complicated question that they couldn't answer. I don't even need "gotcha" questions. It poses no challenge to dissect religious arguments.

(23-11-2015 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  In order to know how we get it, you have to know what "the sin nature of man" is. I assume you know this.
In order to know what "the sin nature of man" is, you have to know what "spiritual man" is and what "natural man" is. I assume you know this.

You also have to know what "their eyes were opened" has to do with spiritual man and with natural man. I assume you know this.

If you don't, I more than happy to share this information with you.

You completely missed the point, dude. If you think that there is a supernatural component to man, then please show it. Also, you would then need to show how this nature is passed (or removed depending on your take) from parent to child. If you actually understood what I wrote, you would have seen that all I was pondering was the mechanism of this transfer. If you want to claim that there is a spiritual component to man, fine. Please demonstrate this so we can rule out some of the other religion's claims of supernatural components of man to shut them up and also to make sure that we are a) studying the real spiritual nature and not a misinterpreted view and b) we are on the same page in terms of what it is. Once you do this, then we can finally begin to see how the sin nature is passed from parent to child. It must pass somehow, but how? Good luck with your first task.

(23-11-2015 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Organic Chemist
Even further, how did the act of eating a magic apple screw with Adam's baby batter
Alla
It didn't. The fruit(not apple) changed something else in Adam's and Eve's body. Hint: no flesh and blood can enter God's kingdom
OK, so the fruit was tainted with what exactly? Knowledge? Knowledge of right and wrong? So how did this tainted fruit overcome the nature of the soul that god himself gave them? Are you seriously suggesting that this tainted fruit could do something that god couldn't undo? Who planted the tree in the first place and made the fruit tainted to begin with? This goes nowhere to explain how sin nature is passed from parent to child which was the entire point of the post.

(23-11-2015 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Organic Chemist
Why do christians think that the sin nature of man can override a supernatural force from a perfect being?
Alla
I don't know why they think this. I guess they have no idea what "the sin nature of man" is. As they have no idea about many other important things.
Oh, and what is "supernatural"? no prophet mentioned this word.

Perhaps you should look up the definition of "supernatural." It would appear that you are the one who doesn't know what it means.

You have no idea where this idea comes from? The bible of course. Here are a few links (NOTE: I am not agreeing with these people, only showing you how some people answer this very question).

1) AIG
2) Another from a bible study
3) Forum where others weighed their opinions

I am aware of the separation idea. The problem is that if that is indeed true, then something pushed out god and he couldn't fix it, or god removed the spirit and he wouldn't fix it. Either way, that is not anything that we would call love or forgiveness if that is the deity's nature. That is what I would expect from a crybaby though.

(23-11-2015 02:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Organic Chemist
How would simply removing this impurity change anything in the freewill department (if that even exists)? Wouldn't removing it show a much higher level of love and affection than just simply letting the fire you started keep burning?
Alla
Good questions. But first you have to know what "the sin nature of man" is. You also have to know why God created Adam and Eve. I assume you know this.
If you don't, I am more than happy to share with you this information

I am aware of what christians claim is the reason why we were created but I am aware of no evidence that makes it clear that Zeus is less likely as creating man than YHWY. You still have all of your work ahead of you as you haven't even demonstrated there is a deity much less it's nature or that there is even some other supernatural realm out there.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-11-2015, 01:25 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
The Organic Chemist
How the hell do you know what I was thinking it for? Quite presumptuous and pompous of you to even think highly of yourself enough to assume the possibility that you can know what the motive was. If you must know, it was a genuine question.
Alla
Fair enough. Could you please tell me why you want to have the answer if you don't believe that Adam and Eve even existed.

Oh, I have one genuine question: how does Santa's reindeers fly? I really can't understand this. I really want to have an answer.

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24-11-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 01:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 12:53 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I dunno, somebody sounds pretty pissed in that text.
You don't know how it sounds. You can't hear the voice.

The fact that you stoop to word play shows the weakness of your position.

(24-11-2015 01:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  God didn't say that He was angry at Adam and Eve. He didn't say that He punishes them.

Let's try this again:

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband's power, and he shall have dominion over thee.
That sounds like anger. That sounds like punishment.

And to Adam he said: ...cursed is the earth in thy work: with labour and toil shalt thou eat thereof all the days of thy life. Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, and thou shalt eat the herbs of the earth. In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread till thou return to the earth out of which thou wast taken: for dust thou art, and into dust thou shalt return
Show me a definition of "cursed" that is not a punishment.

(24-11-2015 01:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  But what happened to them was finally, finally an entering the world where there is not only good but bad: pain, suffering, death, etc.
In our society, it is customary for parents to send their children out into the world, away from their sheltered home. When they do so, the parents usually try to prepare the child for adult life, prepare them for the joys and sorrows they will face in the "real" world.

Most people would consider it wrong to raise a child in a blissfully ignorant shell, a virtual paradise where all of their needs are met, no trouble, no strife and no preparation for the real world. Worse, when the time comes to send them out, you send them out with curses, threats and contempt, blaming them the whole time.

That's pretty fucked up. Especially if that's how you planned it from the beginning. Especially if you knew beforehand that it would turn out that way.

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24-11-2015, 01:30 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
The Organic Chemist
You completely missed the point, dude. If you think that there is a supernatural component to man, then please show it. Also, you would then need to show how this nature is passed (or removed depending on your take) from parent to child

Alla
I didn't talk about any supernatural components. I don't even know what it is.

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