The sin nature of man
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24-11-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 02:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  THe Organic Chemist
Could you please tell me why you want to have the answer if you don't believe that Adam and Eve even existed?

FFS.
Is it possible that the story is true? Yes.
Is it probable that the story is true? No.
Even if it is 1:10trillion chance, it is still possible. You need to understand that possibilities and probabilities are not interchangeable terms.

Is it likely true? No.
Why do I think this? Because there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that does not require a supernatural explanation for how we evolved. It is called following where the evidence points. If new evidence arises, I will reevaluate my position. That is called honesty.

Do I know where life came from? No, nor have I ever claimed such a thing.

So why do I care? Because even if the idea has the remotest chance of being true, it still sometimes warrants thoughts on the matter to be examined and evaluated. The question is a very practical one if the claims that the bible makes are, in fact, true. If you assume they are true, you can take what we have learned about the universe and how it works, and weigh it against what it would take for the supernatural claims to be true against a natural explanation. Occam's Razor does the rest and the supernatural has lost each and every time. The only question is how honest are you to take this idea on.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-11-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
The Organic Chemist
FFS.
Is it possible that the story is true? Yes.
Is it probable that the story is true? No.
Even if it is 1:10trillion chance, it is still possible. You need to understand that possibilities and probabilities are not interchangeable terms.
Alla
OK, I understand.

The Organic Chemist
Is it likely true? No.
Why do I think this? Because there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that does not require a supernatural explanation for how we evolved. It is called following where the evidence points. If new evidence arises, I will reevaluate my position. That is called honesty.
Alla
So, when you don't believe it but you still want to understand what you don't believe, then you want to understand it for a wrong reason. I don't say it is not genuine curiosity, but curiosity is a wrong reason for understanding of spiritual things.
This is what I wanted to tell you.

The organic Chemist
Do I know where life came from? No, nor have I ever claimed such a thing.

So why do I care? Because even if the idea has the remotest chance of being true, it still sometimes warrants thoughts on the matter to be examined and evaluated. The question is a very practical one if the claims that the bible makes are, in fact, true. If you assume they are true, you can take what we have learned about the universe and how it works, and weigh it against what it would take for the supernatural claims to be true against a natural explanation. Occam's Razor does the rest and the supernatural has lost each and every time. The only question is how honest are you to take this idea on.

Alla
1)Are you sure you understand correctly what the Bible claim about creation?
2)I will just repeat what I already said above. If you don't believe first you will never understand spiritual things no matter how genuine your curiosity to understand is.

The less you understand about spiritual things while you don't believe in them the better for you. You can not be accountable before God for things you don't understand.

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24-11-2015, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 04:11 PM by Alla.)
RE: The sin nature of man
TOC
Occam's Razor does the rest and the supernatural has lost each and every time.

Alla
I will tell you why. God gives intelligence to elements. That is why elements can govern themselves. They can "obey" God's laws(laws of nature).
That is why we don't see God's involvement. That is why God had to reveal about it to us.
God never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

We also may not see God's involvement in our lives. We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.. But God gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. God is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature

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24-11-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
Alla
I will tell you why. Leprechauns gives intelligence to elements. That is why elements can govern themselves. They can "obey" Leprechauns laws(laws of nature).
That is why we don't see Leprechauns involvement. That is why Leprechauns had to reveal about it to us.
Leprechauns never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

We also may not see Leprechauns involvement in our lives. We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.. But Leprechauns gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. Leprechauns is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature


Do you understand that this is what you sound like?

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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24-11-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  Alla
I will tell you why. God gives intelligence to elements.

Prove it.

Quote:That is why elements can govern themselves.

What does that mean? Element do not have minds, let alone intelligence.

Quote:They can "obey" God's laws(laws of nature).

Prove it.

Quote:That is why we don't see God's involvement.

We don't see it because it's not there.

Quote:That is why God had to reveal about it to us.
God never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

That assumes facts not in evidence.

Quote:We also may not see God's involvement in our lives. We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.

Seriously, Alla, you are fucking nuts.

Quote:But God gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. God is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature

Prove it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-11-2015, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 05:52 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: The sin nature of man
OK, we'll try again although Chas basically said what I was thinking. You claim it, you demonstrate it. That is how most normal people function in their everyday lives.

(24-11-2015 03:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Organic Chemist
Is it likely true? No.
Why do I think this? Because there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that does not require a supernatural explanation for how we evolved. It is called following where the evidence points. If new evidence arises, I will reevaluate my position. That is called honesty.
Alla
So, when you don't believe it but you still want to understand what you don't believe, then you want to understand it for a wrong reason. I don't say it is not genuine curiosity, but curiosity is a wrong reason for understanding of spiritual things.
This is what I wanted to tell you.

How do you know the reasons are wrong? By what method are you using that is available for us to all understand how you determined that anyone's methodology is incorrect? Simply not coming to the same conclusion as you does not mean that the person's methods were flawed. Perhaps it is your methodology that is flawed. So how do we do about showing that? Also, people can be convinced that a correct thing is true for bad/wrong reasons. That in no way changes what is true or false. If you believed in Brahma for horrible reasons and Brahma was actually real, did the way you came to believe it change the outcome?

(24-11-2015 03:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  Alla
1)Are you sure you understand correctly what the Bible claim about creation?

Well the bible claims several things about creation. If you think that it is an actual account, then most things have been demonstrated to be false by observing the universe (e.g. Earth created before stars, etc.). For this reason, many, many denominations have taken the position that it is an allegory and not literally what happened. This however fails because it is still an incorrect account of what we can show and the book never indicates where the allegory ends and the real begins. Either approach requires special pleading to make it work.

I do think I have the correct understanding. I think that the creation story was written by people who were trying to make sense of the world they occupied and this is what they came up with. These people knew less about the universe than my 5 year-old. Even if I was incorrect, how do you know that your interpretation is the correct one? Please share your methodology so we can be on the same page.

(24-11-2015 03:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  2)I will just repeat what I already said above. If you don't believe first you will never understand spiritual things no matter how genuine your curiosity to understand is.

You seem to not understand how the mind works. In order to believe something, you must be convinced of it first. What you are describing is called confirmation bias. Plain and simple.

(24-11-2015 03:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  The less you understand about spiritual things while you don't believe in them the better for you. You can not be accountable before God for things you don't understand.

In my experience, I know more about christianity and the bible than most christians. I have even had christians tell me that. As for accountability, those who follow the christian teachings believe that anything can be forgiven if all you do is repent since Jesus paid the price for everything you did. That is the antithesis of accountability. There is a word in the bible that describes this idea. It is called scapegoating (see Leviticus 18).


(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  Alla
I will tell you why. God gives intelligence to elements. That is why elements can govern themselves. They can "obey" God's laws(laws of nature).

Please demonstrate how you know the elements have intelligence. As a chemist, I know buttloads about the elements. I would even submit that I have forgotten more about chemistry and physics than you have ever known.

(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  That is why we don't see God's involvement. That is why God had to reveal about it to us.

God didn't reveal shit. Literally everything that we know about the universe was discovered in spite of the bible. Now, had the bible hinted or told us about Germ Theory, that would be an impressive thing. But alas, even the all knowing JC himself said that you don't need to wash before supper (see Mark 7).


(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  God never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

And you know this how? He is doing a pretty crappy job since even his followers can't agree on much and fight over when they don't agree on. Shoot, he could just fix the whole damn thing and that would inevitably make the world a more peaceful place. But I guess that's too much work. I mean, between the appearances on toast, finding parking spaces, car keys, scoring touchdowns for the home and visiting teams, the dude needs some downtime.


(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  We also may not see God's involvement in our lives.


So which is more likely, that we can't see the invisible magical being, or it isn't there? Both appear the same except the former assumes more than the latter.


(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.

I have seen elements do some pretty crazy stuff in my time but I have never seen graphite and diamond battle over who had the one true lattice.


(24-11-2015 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  But God gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. God is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature

The religious hear voices. Schizophrenics do as well. How can we know that the guy holding the sign that says "The End Is Nigh" is not actually the Jesus he claims to be?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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24-11-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 04:33 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Alla
I will tell you why. Leprechauns gives intelligence to elements. That is why elements can govern themselves. They can "obey" Leprechauns laws(laws of nature).
That is why we don't see Leprechauns involvement. That is why Leprechauns had to reveal about it to us.
Leprechauns never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

We also may not see Leprechauns involvement in our lives. We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.. But Leprechauns gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. Leprechauns is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature


Do you understand that this is what you sound like?

[Image: user-syntax.png]
Of course, I do. I was an atheist. I know exactly how I sound to atheists.
But some atheists ask questions about God/gods and the Bible. When I like questions I answer them. Smile

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
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24-11-2015, 06:44 PM
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  How do you know the reasons are wrong? By what method are you using that is available for us to all understand how you determined that anyone's methodology is incorrect? Simply not coming to the same conclusion as you does not mean that the person's methods were flawed. Perhaps it is your methodology that is flawed. So how do we do about showing that? Also, people can be convinced that a correct thing is true for bad/wrong reasons. That in no way changes what is true or false. If you believed in Brahma for horrible reasons and Brahma was actually real, did the way you came to believe it change the outcome?
I agree with everything you said here.
But this is what I am trying to tell you:
When you have faith in God or if you have a desire to have faith in God you will have sincere heart and real intent to understand spiritual things. You will ask question for the right reason.

When you don't have faith in God or if you don't have at least a desire to have faith in God then you will ask questions about spiritual things for a wrong reason.
Really, you don't need the answers. It will make no difference in your life.
But why do we have to understand spiritual things? so it will make a difference in our lives.

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24-11-2015, 07:50 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 07:57 PM by Alla.)
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  By what method are you using that is available for us to all understand how you determined that anyone's methodology is incorrect? Simply not coming to the same conclusion as you does not mean that the person's methods were flawed. Perhaps it is your methodology that is flawed. So how do we do about showing that? Also, people can be convinced that a correct thing is true for bad/wrong reasons. That in no way changes what is true or false. If you believed in Brahma for horrible reasons and Brahma was actually real, did the way you came to believe it change the outcome?
I agree with what you said.
I didn't tell you that I am correct and you are incorrect. I only asked: how do you know that your understanding is correct?

(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Well the bible claims several things about creation. If you think that it is an actual account, then most things have been demonstrated to be false by observing the universe (e.g. Earth created before stars, etc.).
What's wrong with this. It will be many stars that are not born yet but Earth exists for a long time.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I do think I have the correct understanding. I think that the creation story was written by people who were trying to make sense of the world they occupied and this is what they came up with. These people knew less about the universe than my 5 year-old. Even if I was incorrect, how do you know that your interpretation is the correct one? Please share your methodology so we can be on the same page.
How do you know it is correct? I am not telling you it is not. But how do you know it?
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  You seem to not understand how the mind works. In order to believe something, you must be convinced of it first. What you are describing is called confirmation bias. Plain and simple.
All these questions that you ask will never convince you to believe in God. Never.
Until you have an answer to this question: "God, are you really there?" all other questions have to wait.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  In my experience, I know more about christianity and the bible than most christians. I have even had christians tell me that. As for accountability, those who follow the christian teachings believe that anything can be forgiven if all you do is repent since Jesus paid the price for everything you did. That is the antithesis of accountability. There is a word in the bible that describes this idea. It is called scapegoating (see Leviticus 18).
If you know about the Bible than you know that there is no claim that all you need to do is to repent to be forgiven.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Please demonstrate how you know the elements have intelligence. As a chemist, I know buttloads about the elements. I would even submit that I have forgotten more about chemistry and physics than you have ever known.
Smile I believe you.
I don't know this but I believe that this revelation from God is true.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  God didn't reveal shit. Literally everything that we know about the universe was discovered in spite of the bible. Now, had the bible hinted or told us about Germ Theory, that would be an impressive thing.
God doesn't teach about Universe. Why would He if we have to do this? If we don't learn about Universe by working hard and by searching, we would not learn how to progress. We are here to learn how to progress.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Alla:"God never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own."
And you know this how?
Simple logic. Why would you tell me how to solve math problem when you know that I am capable to do it by myself?
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  He is doing a pretty crappy job since even his followers can't agree on much and fight over when they don't agree on.
God didn't send us here to agree on everything. He sent us here to learn and to progress.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  Shoot, he could just fix the whole damn thing and that would inevitably make the world a more peaceful place.
He could but He wants us to fix it. He knows we can when we really try. All of us can make this place more peaceful place. We have this potential. We have to magnify our potential.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  I have seen elements do some pretty crazy stuff in my time but I have never seen graphite and diamond battle over who had the one true lattice.
They don't need to know this. They are not going to be what we can be.
(24-11-2015 05:27 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  The religious hear voices. Schizophrenics do as well. How can we know that the guy holding the sign that says "The End Is Nigh" is not actually the Jesus he claims to be?
When Jesus appears in His resurrected body you will know. You will be convinced.

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24-11-2015, 08:27 PM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2015 08:32 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: The sin nature of man
(24-11-2015 06:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(24-11-2015 04:33 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Alla
I will tell you why. Leprechauns gives intelligence to elements. That is why elements can govern themselves. They can "obey" Leprechauns laws(laws of nature).
That is why we don't see Leprechauns involvement. That is why Leprechauns had to reveal about it to us.
Leprechauns never reveals to us things that we can figure out on our own.

We also may not see Leprechauns involvement in our lives. We are intelligent beings and that is why we can govern ourselves as element can govern themselves.. But Leprechauns gives us revelations about things we can't figure on our own. He tells us about things that lead us to eternal life or to death(self-destruction)
P.S. Leprechauns is not supernatural. He is part of the Nature


Do you understand that this is what you sound like?

[Image: user-syntax.png]
Of course, I do. I was an atheist. I know exactly how I sound to atheists.
But some atheists ask questions about God/gods and the Bible. When I like questions I answer them. Smile

You were an atheist? Interesting, how did you come to theism?

I came to disbelieve religious myth because of the three global biblical myths:

The creation myth- blatantly unscientific unless you reinterpret every verse to make it fit scientific facts which it contradicts.

The Noahtic flood myth- totally impossible from a ship building standpoint to impossible atmospheric physics to the implausibility of any intelligence using a global flood to eradicate life on Earth. It's stupid on every level from scientific to mythological, it's not even a good myth.

The Tower of Babel- Totally falsified by a mountain of blatant archaeological evidence that contradicts every facet of it.

This is just the beginning, I came to doubt EVERY SINGLE CLAIM made by the bible, the more I learned, the more I realized it was pure fantasy and the only reason I ever believed it was because I was indoctrinated into it at a young age.

I don't believe child's fairy tales anymore, so how did you become convinced that these fairy tales were true?

And why such a derivative religion?

It starts with Sumerian-Babylonian-Judaism-Early Christianity-Roman Catholicism-Protestantism-Evangelical Protestantism-Mormonism- Various Mormon Sects.

Mormonism is a sect that is 9th in line of derivative religions. Why the 9th derivative and not the 1st or 2nd derivative?

Was there any kind of rational process that makes the 9th derivative religion the best one?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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