The solution to science arguments against creations age.
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19-03-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
That is EXACTLY the point Impulse, the concept of an omnipotent omniscient god doesn't require evidence, it's evidence proof, granted you can strike down about 90% of religious wack jobs without having to resort to this extreme from a logical foundation there's no way to attack it. Any statement can instantly be answered 'because god is all powerful and made it so' Which is the exact foundation of all hyper theist beliefs.

I'm not trying to prove that this is true, it's again as I stated before a self fulfilling statement, but THIS is the core of rationality that hyper theists hold on to because it can never be defeated.

Understanding this is the key I think to a greater understanding between the theistic and atheistic communities and humanity in general as it requires you to step back take a breath and allow for understanding of another person.

It's a war no one can win.

(19-03-2014 03:08 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 12:02 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  There is no God in our image of course, at least none that's manifest. But what about God's that don't take a form we'd recognize?
What about them? Do you have any evidence for such a god?
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19-03-2014, 03:19 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 03:14 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  Any statement can instantly be answered 'because god is all powerful and made it so'

But it's hardly *convincing* to make such an answer. Surely once you've found enough discrepancies with how the world is and what the theist crowd *say* it is you begin to tire of it?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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19-03-2014, 03:23 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 03:14 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  That is EXACTLY the point Impulse, the concept of an omnipotent omniscient god doesn't require evidence, it's evidence proof, granted you can strike down about 90% of religious wack jobs without having to resort to this extreme from a logical foundation there's no way to attack it. Any statement can instantly be answered 'because god is all powerful and made it so' Which is the exact foundation of all hyper theist beliefs.

I'm not trying to prove that this is true, it's again as I stated before a self fulfilling statement, but THIS is the core of rationality that hyper theists hold on to because it can never be defeated.

Understanding this is the key I think to a greater understanding between the theistic and atheistic communities and humanity in general as it requires you to step back take a breath and allow for understanding of another person.

It's a war no one can win.

(19-03-2014 03:08 PM)Impulse Wrote:  What about them? Do you have any evidence for such a god?
I don't really understand what you are saying, especially in that first sentence which itself makes no sense. And why do you think the concept of an omnipotent omniscient god doesn't require evidence?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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19-03-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 03:14 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  That is EXACTLY the point Impulse, the concept of an omnipotent omniscient god doesn't require evidence, it's evidence proof, granted you can strike down about 90% of religious wack jobs without having to resort to this extreme from a logical foundation there's no way to attack it. Any statement can instantly be answered 'because god is all powerful and made it so' Which is the exact foundation of all hyper theist beliefs.

I'm not trying to prove that this is true, it's again as I stated before a self fulfilling statement, but THIS is the core of rationality that hyper theists hold on to because it can never be defeated.

Understanding this is the key I think to a greater understanding between the theistic and atheistic communities and humanity in general as it requires you to step back take a breath and allow for understanding of another person.

It's a war no one can win.

But there are still several problems with that.

Can omnipotence and omniscience be defined coherently? Even assuming they are - what are the consequences of such a being, if it exists? Is there evidence for it ever having done anything - ever having used its abilities? No. Through prayer? Miracles? Design? No, no, and no.

So we have to modify the claim - there may well be an omnipotent and omniscient God, which, if it exists, only ever acts in such a way as to render the evidence of its having acted null and void, beyond, of course, the act of cosmogony itself...

So now we've obviated all intercessory religious practices and falsifiability criteria, and are left with a vague deism. Which is a merely philosophical position...

To hold onto theism is, at some point, to stop applying rationality to the matter (where "at some point" is "before even beginning to", when it comes to fundamental literalists, and a poorly defined subjective personal experience - "I just have faith" - for most). As a personal matter I begrudge no one doing the latter, but that's by and large incompatible with the very notion of organised religion. So there's that.

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19-03-2014, 04:26 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 04:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  So now we've obviated all intercessory religious practices and falsifiability criteria, and are left with a vague deism. Which is a merely philosophical position...

To hold onto theism is, at some point, to stop applying rationality to the matter (where "at some point" is "before even beginning to", when it comes to fundamental literalists, and a poorly defined subjective personal experience - "I just have faith" - for most). As a personal matter I begrudge no one doing the latter, but that's by and large incompatible with the very notion of organised religion. So there's that.

That is so well written and elegant...I just would have said "fundies stick their fingers in their ear and just go lalalalalalala".

Do you ever write for the unwashed masses? You certainly seem capable of it.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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19-03-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 04:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Do you ever write for the unwashed masses? You certainly seem capable of it.

Well, that depends. How unwashed is this forum, on the whole?
Tongue

(I actually have given quite a bit of thought to being a science writer, but my first goal is my doctorate, so that'd be a long way off...)

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19-03-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 12:41 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  Jesse a lot of people seem to miss the point, from a core logic standpoint the it's totally impossible to prove it's wrong, that's the power of the idea of an omniscient omnipotent God. I see it as a core problem when dealing with extremists of any kind, theist or atheists.

And exactly what is an "extremist atheist" to you?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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19-03-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
(19-03-2014 03:14 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  That is EXACTLY the point Impulse, the concept of an omnipotent omniscient god doesn't require evidence, it's evidence proof..

"Evidence proof"? "Doesn't require evidence"...?


The hell it is.


Quote:I'm not trying to prove that this is true, it's again as I stated before a self fulfilling statement, but THIS is the core of rationality that hyper theists hold on to because it can never be defeated.

Yes, it can be, and yes it has been, over and over.


Quote:It's a war no one can win.

We are winning it on every front, right here and now.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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21-03-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
If this is true, then God himself must have the desire to deceive us, and, more importantly, lead us away from his "righteous path".
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21-03-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: The solution to science arguments against creations age.
Exhausting sometimes, but attacking it does not can not and will NEVER help, EVER it just polarizes the sides, what I look for is people that question, and I find AMAZINGLY few of them.

(19-03-2014 03:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-03-2014 03:14 PM)Sceadwian Wrote:  Any statement can instantly be answered 'because god is all powerful and made it so'

But it's hardly *convincing* to make such an answer. Surely once you've found enough discrepancies with how the world is and what the theist crowd *say* it is you begin to tire of it?
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