The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
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23-04-2013, 01:02 PM
The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
A few minutes ago, an otherwise very intelligent friend whom I deeply respect just told me, "...If the atheists achieve the power they so desperately crave, the oppressors and the persecutors amongst them will be the ones in charge, most likely."

So apparently we're powermongers who will set up in power the very types of people we are vehemently against because such behavior never stands up to logical analysis.

It never ceases to amaze me how actively blind Christians --or any believers-- can be to their own faults. Atheists want equality, and we criticize the spread of misinformation, and somehow this makes us into militant powermongers viciously shoving our own agenda down everyone's throats. Yet Christians are clearly in power and are running America and its schools into the ground with all its religious rhetoric and persecutive dogma, yet that's totally fine.

FUCK. The stupid astounds me. This incredibly intelligent friend of mine, whom I actually deeply respect, and I'm watching as his religion makes an idiot of him.
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23-04-2013, 02:56 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
Atheists don't believe in god.... You could be a power hungry, racist homophobe and still be atheist...

Your friend is still wrong though
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23-04-2013, 03:03 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
You're mistaking atheism with something else (humanism maybe). Your friend is right about opressors taking charge, that tends to happen in every group that takes power (Inquisition anybody?) there's no reason why that wouldn't happen to atheists if such group could ever organize to take power.

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23-04-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
(23-04-2013 01:02 PM)Spegof Wrote:  A few minutes ago, an otherwise very intelligent friend whom I deeply respect just told me, "...If the atheists achieve the power they so desperately crave, the oppressors and the persecutors amongst them will be the ones in charge, most likely."

Hmm... interesting how people often express their fears to be represented from without, when fear usually originates from within. Maybe he's speaking from experience in his church. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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23-04-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
Nach_In, it seems to me that, given how much logic, reason, critical analysis, et al are employed by the freethinkers in general (atheists included, obviously), such behavior like oppression, persecution, or anything else reeking of prejudice would be torn apart simply because we tend to scrutinize everything and tear down (or just mock and criticize) that which makes no sense. I mean, otherwise we'd still be religious. (And yes, I know everyone has individual reasons for not subscribing to religion, but a logical analysis and rejection of the fundamentals of belief tends to be a commonality, I've noticed.) So I honestly don't think persecutors, oppressors, etc. would make it to the top in the off-chance atheists came to power because the rest of us wouldn't buy it for a minute, especially since better examples of leadership and progress already exist.

I mean, look at the prominent members of the atheist community. Not a single one of them even hints at oppression or persecution of believers. There's no need.

And Kim, I like your point about him misplacing his own fear. I think part of it is him feeling persecuted because "suddenly" atheists are coming out and being vocal about the ridiculous claims and behaviors of Christians, and he keeps expressing disgust at the "militant atheists who are shoving their agenda down everyone's throat and are just as bad as the fundies." So mainly I think he's butthurt because now Christians are being held responsible for their crap, and even though he's a tolerant Christian, he doesn't like being grouped in with the fundies and idiots. Except, when his atheist friends were being lumped in with terrorists and every other manner of immoral scum, it was fine and he never said a word.

It just makes me want to headdesk. When he identifies as a Christian, he apparently morphs into a spoiled idiot. GAH. It just gives me heartburn.
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23-04-2013, 04:05 PM
The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
(23-04-2013 03:57 PM)Spegof Wrote:  Nach_In, it seems to me that, given how much logic, reason, critical analysis, et al are employed by the freethinkers in general (atheists included, obviously), such behavior like oppression, persecution, or anything else reeking of prejudice would be torn apart simply because we tend to scrutinize everything and tear down (or just mock and criticize) that which makes no sense. I mean, otherwise we'd still be religious. (And yes, I know everyone has individual reasons for not subscribing to religion, but a logical analysis and rejection of the fundamentals of belief tends to be a commonality, I've noticed.) So I honestly don't think persecutors, oppressors, etc. would make it to the top in the off-chance atheists came to power because the rest of us wouldn't buy it for a minute, especially since better examples of leadership and progress already exist.

I mean, look at the prominent members of the atheist community. Not a single one of them even hints at oppression or persecution of believers. There's no need.

And Kim, I like your point about him misplacing his own fear. I think part of it is him feeling persecuted because "suddenly" atheists are coming out and being vocal about the ridiculous claims and behaviors of Christians, and he keeps expressing disgust at the "militant atheists who are shoving their agenda down everyone's throat and are just as bad as the fundies." So mainly I think he's butthurt because now Christians are being held responsible for their crap, and even though he's a tolerant Christian, he doesn't like being grouped in with the fundies and idiots. Except, when his atheist friends were being lumped in with terrorists and every other manner of immoral scum, it was fine and he never said a word.

It just makes me want to headdesk. When he identifies as a Christian, he apparently morphs into a spoiled idiot. GAH. It just gives me heartburn.

We are all human, religious and atheist alike. The quest for power is human, not only religious. Vigilance, always.
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23-04-2013, 04:05 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
[Image: Help-we-re-being-oppressed-atheism-23887187-350-355.png]

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23-04-2013, 07:59 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
(23-04-2013 04:05 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  We are all human, religious and atheist alike. The quest for power is human, not only religious. Vigilance, always.

Agreed. My point was merely, since we as a group seem to embrace "question everything" and apply it generously in far more areas of our lives than the religious do, we would be constantly questioning the behavior of any leaders we had. Judging from the conversation on this forum, rarely is anything taken at face value. Really despotic behavior would be pointed out and questioned rather early on, and since there is no logical reasoning that can justify "and this is why we need to persecute," it wouldn't really survive.

I also don't recall any tyrannical, despotic, persecuting, or oppressive leaders in history who were also atheist. If anyone can name one, I'd love to learn more. It's just that logic and reason require an open mind, and I can't see an open mind doing something so close-minded.
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23-04-2013, 09:50 PM
RE: The stupid. It burns us! (Just had to vent)
Your friend actually made a pretty accurate observation, albeit narrowly focused on labels rather than broadly focused on humanity writ large. Any time there is power to be had over others, the group that will most be drawn to it are sociopaths... regardless of their core beliefs... or lack thereof. Likewise, those who aren't sociopathic don't have any interest in holding positions of power over others and thus, do not seek those positions. And suffice it to say, both types exist in all walks of life.

It's a common saying that atheists are just like theists, except that the atheist rejects just one more god than the theist. That's a very true statement. Especially when one considers the myriad irrational/illogical beliefs humans tend to hold that have nothing at all to do with ghosts.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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