The suns influence on radioactive decay
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08-02-2013, 01:22 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 01:31 AM by Adenosis.)
The suns influence on radioactive decay
http://phys.org/news202456660.html

Jenkins and Fischbach
suggest that the changes in the decay rates are due to interactions with
solar neutrinos, nearly weightless particles created by nuclear
reactions within the sun's core that travel almost at the speed of
light.

It is estimated that about 60 billion solar neutrinos pass through a
person's fingernail every second, but they are so weakly reactive that
they pass right through the body without disturbing or changing
anything, Jenkins said.

"We haven't known the solar neutrino to interact significantly with
anything, but it fits with the evidence we've gathered as the likely
source of these fluctuations," he said. "So, what we're suggesting is
that something that can't interact with anything is changing something
that can't be changed."


What do you guys think of this? They mentioned the change in decay rate was less than 1% different, but still, It's interesting that the sun might have an effect on decay rates. Makes me really curious as to how that works.

EDIT: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...0510001234

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08-02-2013, 01:40 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
I fail to see the big deal of this, it's interesting, but not too important (in my limited understanding of radioactive decay of course)

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08-02-2013, 01:57 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
(08-02-2013 01:40 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I fail to see the big deal of this, it's interesting, but not too important (in my limited understanding of radioactive decay of course)

Something doesn't have to have huge implications for it to be interesting. If you don't agree then I guess you can't relate to a genuine curiousity in how the universe works. None the less, if radioactive decay is effected by the suns activity it could be possible to predict solar flares. Science has to follow every pleasing lead, amazing discoveries can be made in unlikely places.

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08-02-2013, 02:08 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
(08-02-2013 01:57 AM)Aspchizo Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 01:40 AM)nach_in Wrote:  I fail to see the big deal of this, it's interesting, but not too important (in my limited understanding of radioactive decay of course)

Something doesn't have to have huge implications for it to be interesting. If you don't agree then I guess you can't relate to a genuine curiousity in how the universe works. None the less, if radioactive decay is effected by the suns activity it could be possible to predict solar flares. Science has to follow every pleasing lead, amazing discoveries can be made in unlikely places.
Yes of course! I said it is interesting, I just read the comments in one of the articles and responded based on that (they give it too much importance imo), that's why I sounded uninterested... sorry Tongue

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08-02-2013, 02:44 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
This could lead to new physics, which is always exciting. It's cyclical with the earth's distance from the sun. I see two possibilities:

1.) Radioactive decay rates are affected by the sun's neutrino flux; thus carefully measuring decay rates could lead to information about the sun's interior, without having to build massive underground neutrino detectors. This probably won't help with solar flares, since the neutrinos are generated in the sun's core where fusion occurs, while flares are generated from surface electromagnetic activity which is mostly unrelated.

2.) Radioactive decay rates are affected by gravitational fields, which could have massive implications and possibly help lead to the Unified Theory of Everything. Less likely, but very exciting. Smile

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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08-02-2013, 05:52 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
I've seen this kind of thing floating around, but not from any really solidly credible source Undecided

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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08-02-2013, 06:01 AM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
Just a less than 1 % difference in decay rate? What about heavier elements, like radium?
I expected something like breaking news... Had not the solar activity increased momentarily but dramatically at one point in 19th centruy, Marie Curie Sklodowski would never have a chance noticing there is anything strange about this pitchblende rock.
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08-02-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
Also when a Creationist/Intelligent Design Prop pops in here and says that all methods of radioactive decay are way off and that the earth may be 6000 years, you will know that the change is extremely small and that they misunderstood the find.

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08-02-2013, 04:14 PM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
(08-02-2013 02:44 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  1.) Radioactive decay rates are affected by the sun's neutrino flux; thus carefully measuring decay rates could lead to information about the sun's interior, without having to build massive underground neutrino detectors. This probably won't help with solar flares, since the neutrinos are generated in the sun's core where fusion occurs, while flares are generated from surface electromagnetic activity which is mostly unrelated.

From my understanding of what I've read about it, some think that it would be a method of early detection of solar flares, which if powerful enough to wipe out of satelites, would give us a chance to protect them. I don't suspect it is the solar flare itself that causes the increase in neutrinos, but the increase in activity which is responcible for the increase in neutrinos that cause the flare.

(08-02-2013 02:44 AM)Phaedrus Wrote:  2.) Radioactive decay rates are affected by gravitational fields, which could have massive implications and possibly help lead to the Unified Theory of Everything. Less likely, but very exciting. Smile

Decay is effected by gravity? I never thought of this. I understand a strong enough field would prevent decay, such as that in a neutron star, preventing the decay of the neutron into a proton and electron even though a neutron is not stable by itself.

(08-02-2013 06:01 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Just a less than 1 % difference in decay rate? What about heavier elements, like radium?
I expected something like breaking news... Had not the solar activity increased momentarily but dramatically at one point in 19th centruy, Marie Curie Sklodowski would never have a chance noticing there is anything strange about this pitchblende rock.

No breaking news yet, just an interesting fluctuation of radioactive decay rate. The article claims they have only tested this with the radioactive isotopes silicon-32 and chlorine-36.

(08-02-2013 05:52 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I've seen this kind of thing floating around, but not from any really solidly credible source Undecided

Perhaps it is an attempt by Intelligent Design advocates to 'prove' radioactive decay dating methods wrong. Would have to take a look at the names of the individuals in each experiment.

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22-04-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: The suns influence on radioactive decay
(08-02-2013 01:22 AM)Adenosis Wrote:  http://phys.org/news202456660.html

Jenkins and Fischbach
suggest that the changes in the decay rates are due to interactions with
solar neutrinos, nearly weightless particles created by nuclear
reactions within the sun's core that travel almost at the speed of
light.

It is estimated that about 60 billion solar neutrinos pass through a
person's fingernail every second, but they are so weakly reactive that
they pass right through the body without disturbing or changing
anything, Jenkins said.

"We haven't known the solar neutrino to interact significantly with
anything, but it fits with the evidence we've gathered as the likely
source of these fluctuations," he said. "So, what we're suggesting is
that something that can't interact with anything is changing something
that can't be changed."


What do you guys think of this? They mentioned the change in decay rate was less than 1% different, but still, It's interesting that the sun might have an effect on decay rates. Makes me really curious as to how that works.

EDIT: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...0510001234

Hi there,

I am a German Physicist and waited over 40 years of such measurements, because they are an indication that my Hypotheses is right.
Radioactive decay needs an information from the outside…
The new law:
A physical system in a metastable state remains in it as long as not a particular value of an arbitrary parameter is determined from outside.
http://science-technology-inventions.weebly.com/
see also attachment
Greetings from Florida
Wolfhart Willimczik

there are more measurements…

[1] E. Fischbach, K.J. Chen, R.E. Gold, J.O. Goldsten, D.J. Lawrence, R.J. McNutt, E.A. Rhodes, J.H. Jenkins, J. Longuski, Astrophys. Spa. Sci. 337 (2012) 39.
[2] J.H. Jenkins, E. Fischbach, Astropart. Phys. 31 (2009) 407.
[3] J.H. Jenkins, E. Fischbach, J. Buncher, J. Gruenwald, D.E. Krause, J.J. Mattes,
Astropart. Phys. 32 (2009) 42.
[4] E. Fischbach, J. Buncher, J. Gruenwald, D. Javorsek II, J.H. Jenkins, R.H. Lee, D.E.
Krause, J.J. Mattes, J. Newport, Spa. Sci. Rev. 145 (2009) 285.
[5] D.E. Alburger, G. Harbottle, E.F. Norton, Earth Planet. Sci. Lett. 78 (1986) 168.
[6] J. Siegert, H. Schrader, U. Schötzig, Appl. Radiat. Isot. 49 (1998) 1397.
[7] E.D. Falkenberg, Aperion 8 (2001) 32.
[8] A.G. Parkhomov, Int. J. Pure Appl. Phys. 1 (2005) 119. ,


.
[9] Y.A. Baurov et al., Mod. Phys. Lett. A 16 (2001) 2089;
Y.A. Baurov et al., Phys. At. Nucl. 70 (2007) 1825. [10] K.J. Ellis, Phys. Med. Biol. 35 (1990) 1079.
[11] S.E. Shnoll et al., Phys. Usp. 41 (1998) 1025;
S.E. Shnoll et al., Phys. Usp. 43 (2000) 205.
[12] V. Lobashev et al., Phys. Lett. B 460 (1999) 227.
[13] P.A. Sturrock, E. Fischbach, J.H. Jenkins, Solar Phys. 272 (2011) 1.
[14] E. Fischbach, J.H. Jenkins, J.B. Buncher, J.T. Gruenwald, P.A. Sturrock, D. Javorsek
II, in: V. Alan Kostelecky ́ (Ed.), Proceedings of the Fifth Meeting on CPT and
Lorentz Symmetry, World Scientific, Singapore, 2011.
[15] E. Norman, E. Browne, H. Shugart, T. Joshi, R. Firestone, Astropart. Phys. 31
(2009) 31.
[16] P.S. Cooper, Astropart. Phys. 31 (2009) 267.
[17] J.C. Hardy, J.R. Goodwin, V.E. Iacob, Appl. Radiat. Isotopes (2012), http://
dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.apradiso.2012.02.021.
[18] R.J. de Meijer, M. Blaaw, F.D. Smit, Appl. Radiat. Isot. 69 (2011) 320.


there is more to find:

Getting out of the solar core, neutrinos are speed demons, photons are slugs. h/t to Leif Svalgaard for the graphical annotation inspiration. Solar core image from NASA.
In August, WUWT carried a story that was rather shocking: some physicists published claims they have detected a variation in earthly radioactive decay rates, big news by itself, but the shocker is they attributed it to solar neutrinos.


Research papers: PERIODIC VARIATIONS: SCALE OF DAYS OR YEARS:
· Evidence for Solar Influences on Nuclear Decay Rates by Ephraim Fischbach et al. [2010/07] Presents evidence of a fluctuation tied to the Rieger periodicity.
· Half-life of 32Si by D. E. Alburger et al. [Earth Planet. Sci. Lett. 78, 168 (1986)] Observed an unexplained annual variation in the ratio of silicon-32 to chlorine-36.
· Evidence for Correlations Between Nuclear Decay Rates and Earth-Sun Distance by Jere H. Jenkins et al. [Astroparticle Physics 32, 42 (2009)]
· Searching for modifications to the exponential radioactive decay law with the Cassini spacecraft by Peter S. Cooper [Astroparticle Physics 31, 267 (2009)] ... and finding none.
· Evidence against correlations between nuclear decay rates and Earth-Sun distance by Eric B. Norman et al. [Astroparticle Physics 31, 135 (2009)]
Analysis of environmental influences in nuclear half-life measurements exhibiting time-dependent decay rates by Jere H. Jenkins et al. [Nucl. Inst.


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