The universe can't have come from nothing
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01-01-2014, 10:16 PM
The universe can't have come from nothing
The universe can't have come from nothing, therefore god must've made it.
I hear christians make this claim all the time and I'm sick of it. All we know know is that time and space and the laws of physics as we know them did not exsist before the big bang, so I want to know something. How do know that the universe couldve have created itself, or always existed in different states? Where is your evidence for god doing this?

"People who use quotes when running out of talking points to repeat or for lack of being capable of producing any kind of argument in a debate, are braindead fools who are incapable of thinking for themselves let alone arguing for themselves or their point of view" - The Germans are coming, member of TTAF
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01-01-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
Similar conversation right now that might have some insight.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...hing-comes
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02-01-2014, 02:53 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
(01-01-2014 10:16 PM)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:  The universe can't have come from nothing, therefore god must've made it.
I hear christians make this claim all the time and I'm sick of it. All we know know is that time and space and the laws of physics as we know them did not exsist before the big bang, so I want to know something. How do know that the universe couldve have created itself, or always existed in different states? Where is your evidence for god doing this?

First Cause Argument - Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God. Also known as Cosmological Argument.

My standard reply is what caused god, and when they reply he has always been, it is too easy to say "prove it", or even "so following that logic, so has the universe..."

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-01-2014, 04:55 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
People like to stick names on things. Everything theists can't explain is called God. Everything they want other people to do is called God's Law.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
Thanks for reminding me why I can't stand theists.

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02-01-2014, 06:02 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
Intellectual dishonesty will always be present within any belief that does not have sufficient evidence; I can't blame them.
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02-01-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
For people who probably dont have a single clue about what an electron is, it is simply foolish and outright arrogantly moronic to make any kind of claim on how the universe suposedly works.

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02-01-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
These Christians who use that argument are hypocrites... They can't accept that the dead, unconscious, indifferent universe came from nothing but happily allow their almighty, omnipotent, benevolent God to do just that.

I suppose what they're trying to do is say that we have "faith" that the universe came from nothing. But faith is more than simply believing something to be true. In every situation I can think of, faith has either hope or fear (or both) strongly attached to it. I don't have any emotional investment in the idea of spontaneous creation, it doesn't bother me either way if its proven true or false.

So no, I don't have faith that the universe came from nothing, just as I don't have faith that it came from something... the only reason I think about it is because I find the mystery so fascinating, but unlike the faithful I won't go into denial if the truth isn't what I expect it to be.

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02-01-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
(02-01-2014 02:53 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(01-01-2014 10:16 PM)Lemonvariable72 Wrote:  The universe can't have come from nothing, therefore god must've made it.
I hear christians make this claim all the time and I'm sick of it. All we know know is that time and space and the laws of physics as we know them did not exsist before the big bang, so I want to know something. How do know that the universe couldve have created itself, or always existed in different states? Where is your evidence for god doing this?

First Cause Argument - Everything that exists in our world is the result of some sort of "first cause" which brought about its existence. Therefore, there must have been a force which created the universe. That "first cause" is what we call God. Also known as Cosmological Argument.

My standard reply is what caused god, and when they reply he has always been, it is too easy to say "prove it", or even "so following that logic, so has the universe..."

That isn't quite how the argument goes, though. The claim is that all contingent things (i.e., things that have the possibility of existing or not existing) must have a cause. This leads you to postulate either an infinite regression of causality, or a "first cause" which is not contingent -- i.e., it necessarily exists. Those who make this argument consider the infinite regress to be an absurdity; therefore, there is a first cause -- "and this we call God". God doesn't need a cause because he is not contingent.

My standard response to this used to be (following Bertrand Russell) that if there has to be something that has always existed and wasn't caused, it might as well be the universe as God. But that doesn't seem to work, either, because we have very good evidence that the universe had a beginning -- the Big Bang. So it hasn't always existed. Therefore it is contingent and must have had a cause, etc.

I don't find this argument at all convincing -- I don't believe in God with or without the argument -- but I can't exactly refute it either. The best I can do at the moment is to ask: (1) Is it necessarily true that all contingent things must have a cause, or is that an unwarranted assumption? and (2) Why is an infinite regression any more absurd than the concept of an eternally existing, entirely non-material being who has the power to create the entire universe out of nothing?

Of course the infinite regression runs into the problem that the universe seems to have had a beginning. And the "bouncing universe" model (Big Bang followed by expansion, then contraction ending in a "Big Collapse", followed by another Big Bang, and so on) supposedly doesn't work due to entropy (although I don't see how any defined value of entropy survives the singularity between the big collapse and the big bang).

Anyway, I don't have the answer. But I don't think it's quite as simple as "If God created the universe, who created God?"
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02-01-2014, 10:17 PM
RE: The universe can't have come from nothing
(02-01-2014 06:07 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  For people who probably dont have a single clue about what an electron is, it is simply foolish and outright arrogantly moronic to make any kind of claim on how the universe suposedly works.

Considering that we have no fucking clue as to what the universe is (It could be the inside of a black hole for example) I think I don't know is a great answer. Why? Because it makes zero assumptions.

"People who use quotes when running out of talking points to repeat or for lack of being capable of producing any kind of argument in a debate, are braindead fools who are incapable of thinking for themselves let alone arguing for themselves or their point of view" - The Germans are coming, member of TTAF
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