The world without lies
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13-02-2013, 06:54 AM
RE: The world without lies
...
The world without lies would be like a world without religion.

Wouldn't it be 'heavenly'?
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13-02-2013, 06:56 PM
RE: The world without lies
(13-02-2013 06:54 AM)Zat Wrote:  ...
The world without lies would be like a world without religion.

Wouldn't it be 'heavenly'?
Ha,

But no lies does not equal truth being expressed... There is nothing in this perceived world preventing ignorance. People could be saying so much that they don't know isn't true, there's just a likely sense to believe bad information because there isn't lying about.

I think the experience of lies helps teach those the pathway to questioning more.

"Love is hot, Truth is molten!"
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14-02-2013, 06:49 AM
RE: The world without lies
As I said, in this world you are not forced to tell the truth.

If you are saying incorrect things, out of ignorance, that's fine too.

Have you seen the movie "Bulworth" with Warren Beatty? -- A suicidally disillusioned liberal politician puts a contract out on
himself and takes the opportunity to be bluntly honest with his voters.

It was brilliant, refreshing and very very funny.

If only deliberate lies became impossible, this would be an infinitely better world.
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14-02-2013, 06:56 AM
Re: RE: The world without lies
(14-02-2013 06:49 AM)Zat Wrote:  As I said, in this world you are not forced to tell the truth.

If you are saying incorrect things, out of ignorance, that's fine too.

Have you seen the movie "Bulworth" with Warren Beatty? -- A suicidally disillusioned liberal politician puts a contract out on
himself and takes the opportunity to be bluntly honest with his voters.

It was brilliant, refreshing and very very funny.

If only deliberate lies became impossible, this would be an infinitely better world.

I do not believe that deliberate lies are an issue that without them, things would be definitely better.

I think people convince themselves of faulty ideas more than they deliberately lie. I see people think that about politicians and public figures mostly, but It can often, I think more than not, be people woefully convinced of their worldview.

If religion proves anything, it's that people can rationalize the biggest load of crap to themselves.

"Love is hot, Truth is molten!"
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14-02-2013, 07:04 AM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2013 07:09 AM by Zat.)
RE: The world without lies
(14-02-2013 06:56 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I see people think that about politicians and public figures mostly...
...
Don't forget most of the business community, the entire advertising industry, think-tanks, the entire mainstream media, most sales agents in all areas of commerce, some of the clergy, most lobbyists, everybody involved in a coverup, the military wanting new toys,......, I could go on....

It is a very long list.

Most of the people who are running the world are lying most of the time to have their way or to cover their asses.

Since they are responsible for the decisions shaping our future, removing their ability of lying to the public would remove the other pillar of social insanity: people being fooled into supporting them, against their own interest.
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14-02-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: The world without lies
Girly ain't sure the world itself, meaning our perception of it and even our ability to perceive and comprehend it, ain't itself a lie. Seems to me it almost has to be. The modality of the transducer always distorts that which is sensed and thus is always a lie in a sense. ... The fuck I'm doing derailing Zat when he just came back. ... That ain't what Zat was talking about at all. And it's way too early in the day to go all metaphysical and shit. ... My apologies old man. It won't happen again. ... Ah, who the fuck am I kidding, it's gonna happen again. ... Now where'd I leave that 4-way blotter I just stumbled across the other day.

Despite my feeble attempts at lighthearted comedic bullshit, Girly is seriously happy to see both Zat and Peterkin participating again. I missed them both. Thumbsup

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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14-02-2013, 05:05 PM
RE: The world without lies
(14-02-2013 04:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Girly ain't sure the world itself, meaning our perception of it and even our ability to perceive and comprehend it, ain't itself a lie. Seems to me it almost has to be. The modality of the transducer always distorts that which is sensed and thus is always a lie in a sense. ... The fuck I'm doing derailing Zat when he just came back. ... That ain't what Zat was talking about at all. And it's way too early in the day to go all metaphysical and shit. ... My apologies old man. It won't happen again. ... Ah, who the fuck am I kidding, it's gonna happen again. ... Now where'd I leave that 4-way blotter I just stumbled across the other day.

Despite my feeble attempts at lighthearted comedic bullshit, Girly is seriously happy to see both Zat and Peterkin participating again. I missed them both. Thumbsup

I think perhaps Zat is concerned with lies within lies.
There is the question of a false and uneccessary consciousness being created to serve spurious demands.
For example if a company sells designer clothes so that people can display the label externally and feel good about their self image, and, at the same time uses an inferior material, it might be claimed that they have lied over two rather than one thing. Is it true that designer clothes reflect anything very important, being the second lie.

While lies within lies are bad there may be a myriad of lies pertaining to a consciousness that is ideologically developed to push values that are less than essential to a reasonably contented society.
Consider another example. Let us argue that fast food causes obesity in a good many people, while accepting that many other factors can be involved. O.K we have a partial cause to an undesirable condition and the media may well draw our attention to dietary needs and the need to exercise etc. On the other hand, the obese may become sort of reluctant heroes in their own right, what with T.V. game shows, fat glamour contests, and the availability for specialized surgery to address some situations that have gone too far. I am not claiming that obesity in all its forms fall into this criteria.

In a laisez faire capitalist society needs (truths) can be created whereby many people find security by adopting life styles tailor made by the entrepreneurs, and often to the disadvantage of the former.
So, not only do we need to be wary of lies (within the system) but also many of the so called truths, to which we have in a good many instances become accustomed.
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14-02-2013, 05:06 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2013 05:24 PM by Zat.)
RE: The world without lies
(14-02-2013 04:24 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Despite my feeble attempts at lighthearted comedic bullshit, Girly is seriously happy to see both Zat and Peterkin participating again. I missed them both. Thumbsup
...
Hi Girly, we both love you too! Smile
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14-02-2013, 05:25 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2013 05:29 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: The world without lies
Quote: There is nothing in this perceived world preventing ignorance. People could be saying so much that they don't know isn't true, there's just a likely sense to believe bad information because there isn't lying about.
Ignorance is merely uninformed. Honest ignorance asks questions. If it then encounters lies, it becomes misinformed, disinformed and possibly, if sufficiently browbeaten by liars, delusional. If there is nobody to tell the ignorant that first lie "You are nothing." and then, "Believe me, and you will be something. Follow me unquestioningly, and you will be important."
If we could avoid that first lie, most of the self-deception would become unnecessary.

It's not the mean god I have trouble with - it's the people who worship a mean god.
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15-02-2013, 01:32 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2013 01:41 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The world without lies
(14-02-2013 05:05 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I think perhaps Zat is concerned with lies within lies.

Dunno why, Woofmeister, but your posts often lead me to reread the works of the late great Jorge Luis Borges. This one made me reread Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius. .... Dunno why. Smile

(14-02-2013 05:25 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  If there is nobody to tell the ignorant that first lie "You are nothing." and then, "Believe me, and you will be something. Follow me unquestioningly, and you will be important."
If we could avoid that first lie, most of the self-deception would become unnecessary.

What you call the first lie seems almost like a self-evident premise to me, Peterkin. Anything after that is the lie.

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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