The wrong question
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05-09-2012, 10:00 PM
RE: The wrong question
(05-09-2012 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, the question Theists always ask is : "Well, how can it just all have come from nothing ?"

That is, IMHO, not the first question that needs answering.
The real question is : what caused "Causality" ?
Can that be addressed without Infinite Regression ?

Can causality arise spontaneously ? Is spacetime required for cause -> effect, to happen ? Does it HAVE to happen "in that order" ?

Recent experiments showing an effect preceding a cause:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/d...eforehand/


Freaky world we live in.
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05-09-2012, 10:30 PM
RE: The wrong question
(05-09-2012 10:00 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(05-09-2012 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So, the question Theists always ask is : "Well, how can it just all have come from nothing ?"

That is, IMHO, not the first question that needs answering.
The real question is : what caused "Causality" ?
Can that be addressed without Infinite Regression ?

Can causality arise spontaneously ? Is spacetime required for cause -> effect, to happen ? Does it HAVE to happen "in that order" ?

Recent experiments showing an effect preceding a cause:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012/04/d...eforehand/


Freaky world we live in.

Exactly. In fact, I use this, (Relativity) to refute Aquinas. But, before, or after, ..... the "structure" of causation is there. I'm interested in unexamined/unspoken premises. I think this is a perfect example of one.

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05-09-2012, 10:42 PM (This post was last modified: 05-09-2012 11:05 PM by nach_in.)
RE: The wrong question
I remember seeing a talk or a documentary about the theory of the holographic universe, the pertinent part was that this guy (a physicist) explained that if they were correct, they could explain that each interaction sends "waves" across time in both directions, actually modifying the starting conditions of the universe at the time of the big bang (not a bit after). He then explained that free will and fate could be one and the same thing, we, by making a choice, predetermine ourselves to make that choice from the beginning of the universe... freaky stuff, I'll try to find that video but I doubt I will, but it was explained in layman terms as I said it, so trust me on this Tongue

EDIT: ok don't trust me, I couldn't find the video, but I think this is what they were talking about t that Bohm guy seemed to be quite the fringe scientist but he has credentials and there are equations in other articles in wikipedia and I trust equations. So I guess that it's safe to speculate around his ideas (knowing, of course, that this is part of the limits of modern physics so nobody knows for sure)

please don't crucify me Blink

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05-09-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: The wrong question
(05-09-2012 10:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I remember seeing a talk or a documentary about the theory of the holographic universe, the pertinent part was that this guy (a physicist) explained that if they were correct, they could explain that each interaction sends "waves" across time in both directions, actually modifying the starting conditions of the universe at the time of the big bang (not a bit after). He then explained that free will and fate could be one and the same thing, we, by making a choice, predetermine ourselves to make that choice from the beginning of the universe... freaky stuff, I'll try to find that video but I doubt I will, but it was explained in layman terms as I said it, so trust me on this Tongue

EDIT: ok don't trust me, I couldn't find the video, but I think this is what they were talking about t that Bohm guy seemed to be quite the fringe scientist but he has credentials and there are equations in other articles in wikipedia and I trust equations. So I guess that it's safe to speculate around his ideas (knowing, of course, that this is part of the limits of modern physics so nobody knows for sure)

please don't crucify me Blink

That's getting to an idea that is the main idea of Hawking's recent book, The Grand Design. Hawking used the double slit experiment to illustrate his idea, but in a nutshell the idea is that the probability of any given result can be figured by summing the probabilities of all the possible histories to that outcome. When we measure something, the process of that measurement provides a constraint such that only the possible histories that create that measurement result are left in the probability calculation. So along the lines of the idea you describe, Hawking suggests a sort of our free will acting like a constraint on the possible histories of the universe leading up to our choice.

Hopefully my description isn't too confusing--I don't want to rewrite the equivalent of a chapter of Hawking's book and don't feel like writing a big post at this late hour. Read Hawking's book if you're interested in the ideas, though. It's pretty accessible reading.
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05-09-2012, 11:40 PM
RE: The wrong question
(05-09-2012 11:18 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(05-09-2012 10:42 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I remember seeing a talk or a documentary about the theory of the holographic universe, the pertinent part was that this guy (a physicist) explained that if they were correct, they could explain that each interaction sends "waves" across time in both directions, actually modifying the starting conditions of the universe at the time of the big bang (not a bit after). He then explained that free will and fate could be one and the same thing, we, by making a choice, predetermine ourselves to make that choice from the beginning of the universe... freaky stuff, I'll try to find that video but I doubt I will, but it was explained in layman terms as I said it, so trust me on this Tongue

EDIT: ok don't trust me, I couldn't find the video, but I think this is what they were talking about t that Bohm guy seemed to be quite the fringe scientist but he has credentials and there are equations in other articles in wikipedia and I trust equations. So I guess that it's safe to speculate around his ideas (knowing, of course, that this is part of the limits of modern physics so nobody knows for sure)

please don't crucify me Blink

That's getting to an idea that is the main idea of Hawking's recent book, The Grand Design. Hawking used the double slit experiment to illustrate his idea, but in a nutshell the idea is that the probability of any given result can be figured by summing the probabilities of all the possible histories to that outcome. When we measure something, the process of that measurement provides a constraint such that only the possible histories that create that measurement result are left in the probability calculation. So along the lines of the idea you describe, Hawking suggests a sort of our free will acting like a constraint on the possible histories of the universe leading up to our choice.

Hopefully my description isn't too confusing--I don't want to rewrite the equivalent of a chapter of Hawking's book and don't feel like writing a big post at this late hour. Read Hawking's book if you're interested in the ideas, though. It's pretty accessible reading.

Oh don't worry I get the idea quite well, I had this kind of "theories" before about my particular understanding of time and how it works, and I like that scientist are heading in that direction because I feel (yes, I can't prove it so is just my personal hunch) is the right one, at least is logically consistent. I'll try to find that book, it seems very interesting Big Grin

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06-09-2012, 08:17 AM
RE: The wrong question
(05-09-2012 06:08 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-09-2012 04:55 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  In order for you to observe and function in reality, one must first assume its existence.

The fuck you say. I function quite well without making any such assumption thankyou very much. ... Might even go so far as saying that dropping that assumption is the secret to my success, such as it is.








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