The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
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06-09-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 01:25 PM)Nishi Karano Kaze Wrote:  which god(s)?
Perhaps it's aliens that use mind-control?
perhabs Smile

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06-09-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
Actually, you *can* see air under the right circumstances. Ever see a film clip of an explosion that shows the pressure wave?
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06-09-2015, 02:50 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
Air is quantifiable, you can measure it by volume, or by weight. You can examine it for it's properties and even separate it's components and put them to different uses. All of this is testable, and reliably repeatable.

Any "god" you care to mention only exists in the imagination of the user -- and cannot be quantified or in any way verified.

...

And btw -- you can't really see air -- you can only see it's distorting effects on light i.e. pressure waves, atmospheric distortion (astronomic) or mirages....

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06-09-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  So I know many of us have heard this excuse when discussing religion with a religious person. We say we need evidence or that we can't believe it unless we see it. But I thought about something with this argument. Yes we can't see air but we can feel it against our skin. We are able to use one of our 5 senses to detect what we qualify as air. So this rebuttal is flawed and illogical.

Now most would then go to the ever so popular " I feel him in my heart, he spoke to me" routine and give you a clear example usually involving some awaking from doing bad things or he saved them in some way by telling them what to do. What I question is do they actually hear anything? Do they know how the human body functions in regard to hearing? Because in order to hear something it must be done by our ears. Now what they "heard" was their own thoughts in their head in some cases others there was a good logical reason to explain what was heard(something in the distance, etc.) so again flawed.

Anyway I was just thinking of this last night thought I'd put it out there for discussion. Thanks

Whenever they say such things as "I feel him in my heart, he spoke to me" etc, it is but an escape route for them from facing questions that can be contested with actual answers verses the God of the Gaps argument they always fall back on.

They are trying to give you an argument from personal experience because they intuitively know you cannot provide any evidence against it. However, in situations like this you can throw serious doubt upon their claim.

Since they cannot prove their personal experience any more than you can disprove it, the argument would appear to be in a stalemate. However, they rest their case upon only one reason, namely, they feel God in their heart, and he spoke to them.

This is an opportunity to suggest other possibilities. These possibilities should always be put to them in the form of a question so that they are required to answer them.

1. If you are hearing voices in your head which you believe to be God, how certain are you that those voices do not indicate some other possibility such as a disorder or delusion?

Immediately they will get defensive, and start saying things such as "I just know," or "I am 100% certain." That's when you ask them the next question:

2. Have you ever seen a documentary or television show, or movie in which a person suffered from a mental illness in which they also heard voices in their head, and it was learned that they were suffering from some kind of psychological problem?

They undoubtedly will have seen such a film, and they again will get defensive and initiate a response with something to the effect of, "Yes, but ... ." They will try to explain how their experience is different than that which was portrayed in the film. That's when you tell them the following:

"Well, if something was really wrong with you, you would be incapable of knowing it, just like those people in the film. If I were you, I would consider that possibility because the way you portray yourself to me- from my point of view- is identical to the way both you and I view those psychologically problematic people in those films."

That just might shake something loose with them, as they may then realize that the way they portray themselves as "someone whom God talks to" can be viewed in the same light as those who do indeed suffer from psychological issues.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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06-09-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 12:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  What I question is do they actually hear anything?
Good question. The answer is unknown until you actually hear the voice of the Holy Ghost yourself. What can be better than someone's testimony? the answer: your own testimony. when you have it then you know the answer to this good question.
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Do they know how the human body functions in regard to hearing?
May be they do, may be they don't.
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Because in order to hear something it must be done by our ears. Now what they "heard" was their own thoughts in their head in some cases others there was a good logical reason to explain what was heard(something in the distance, etc.) so again flawed.
Sometimes they may hear by their ears. But how would you know this?
Sometimes they have thoughts in their heads followed by the influence of the Holy Ghost in their hearts which is not possible to explain with any language. Influence of the Holy Ghost is very convincing and always, always brings only GOOD fruits/results(evidence)
These GOOD fruits or results is good evidence of the truthfulness of the words that are spoken by the Holy Ghost.
Small still voice of the Holy Ghost always testifies of things that are true. By the fruits(evidence)we may know this.

Do you even comprehend what is stated sometimes. You did not answer a single question. All you did was spit up the same non answers we've heard. Stop preaching and really think about the question.
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06-09-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
I think some people hear a voice, but attributing it to god is wish fulfillment or mental illness. Most people can "hear" voices and other sounds that are not actually happening at the time (those songs that get stuck in our heads, or imagining the sound of glass breaking, etc.). If you're conditioned by your cult to expect that god wants to talk to you, it's easy to convince yourself that god is speaking.

I also think that sometimes people don't mean a literal voice. They wake up with one of those great ideas that seems to come from nowhere and feel it must have come from god. So they'll still refer to that as god speaking to them.

Any voices I hear are usually telling me I might have left the oven on or the door unlocked, I should go check. My god's kind of OCD.
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06-09-2015, 04:21 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
The entire realm of argument by personal experience is worthless because of the way the human brain works. It functions quite well in the context of avoiding lions on the savannah, and it is pretty much useless at inferring causes from effects. We perceive all kinds of things, some real, some not. Then we misremember what we experienced, even when we are certain of our memory. And then we draw deeply flawed conclusions to explain what we (mis-)remember having experienced.

People who think the brain works like a camera are guaranteed to be fooled by their own. And it's hopeless to try to convince them that their memories are flawed and their understanding is defective.

This applies to religion and it applies to medical pseudo-science, such as homeopathy, acupuncture, herbal remedies, opposition to vaccines, etc.

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06-09-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 04:17 PM)julep Wrote:  I think some people hear a voice, but attributing it to god is wish fulfillment or mental illness. Most people can "hear" voices and other sounds that are not actually happening at the time (those songs that get stuck in our heads, or imagining the sound of glass breaking, etc.). If you're conditioned by your cult to expect that god wants to talk to you, it's easy to convince yourself that god is speaking.

I also think that sometimes people don't mean a literal voice. They wake up with one of those great ideas that seems to come from nowhere and feel it must have come from god. So they'll still refer to that as god speaking to them.

Any voices I hear are usually telling me I might have left the oven on or the door unlocked, I should go check. My god's kind of OCD.

But again that's not a voice, it's your own thoughts.

In order for it to be a voice there would need to be vocal cords in use.
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06-09-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 12:00 PM)pablo Wrote:  What makes these people so special that god picked them to speak to and not the millions of other believers?

Allow me to bear witness: insanity. Big Grin

There's a casual chain of circumstance where god obviously fails. If we're in a room with no air, there's gagging and dying. But if we're in a conversation about creation, the Jesus freak can come up with god, and I can come up with my Gwynnies. It's like diving by zero.

The casual chain has broken somewhere along the line.

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06-09-2015, 05:03 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 04:29 PM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 04:17 PM)julep Wrote:  I think some people hear a voice, but attributing it to god is wish fulfillment or mental illness. Most people can "hear" voices and other sounds that are not actually happening at the time (those songs that get stuck in our heads, or imagining the sound of glass breaking, etc.). If you're conditioned by your cult to expect that god wants to talk to you, it's easy to convince yourself that god is speaking.

I also think that sometimes people don't mean a literal voice. They wake up with one of those great ideas that seems to come from nowhere and feel it must have come from god. So they'll still refer to that as god speaking to them.

Any voices I hear are usually telling me I might have left the oven on or the door unlocked, I should go check. My god's kind of OCD.

But again that's not a voice, it's your own thoughts.

In order for it to be a voice there would need to be vocal cords in use.

I'm just speculating why people would interpret their thoughts as being the voice of a separate being and feel that those voices were outside of themselves.

In most of the stories I've heard about people experiencing (what they thought was) the voice of god, they were either alone or with other people who couldn't hear it. The people who couldn't hear god's voice were considered a) too sinful, or b) not intended to hear the message because it was personal.
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