The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
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06-09-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 12:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  What I question is do they actually hear anything?

Good question. The answer is unknown until you actually hear the voice of the Holy Ghost yourself. What can be better than someone's testimony? the answer: your own testimony. when you have it then you know the answer to this good question.

So we're back to the Exclusive Deity, are we?
"Members only, sir."
"How do I become one?"
"Only members are allowed to apply for membership."

Also; what can be better than ANY testimony? Empirical evidence. Ask any legal professional. A legal scholar, a lawyer, a judge; they will all tell you that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, riddled with false memories and biases that make even completely honest testimony less than trustworthy unless backed by empirical evidence; DNA, footage, fingerprints, etc.

(06-09-2015 12:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Do they know how the human body functions in regard to hearing?

May be they do, may be they don't.

Clearly not, if they think the heart gives them feels.

(06-09-2015 12:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  Because in order to hear something it must be done by our ears. Now what they "heard" was their own thoughts in their head in some cases others there was a good logical reason to explain what was heard(something in the distance, etc.) so again flawed.

Sometimes they may hear by their ears. But how would you know this?
Sometimes they have thoughts in their heads followed by the influence of the Holy Ghost in their hearts which is not possible to explain with any language. Influence of the Holy Ghost is very convincing and always, always brings only GOOD fruits/results(evidence)
These GOOD fruits or results is good evidence of the truthfulness of the words that are spoken by the Holy Ghost.
Small still voice of the Holy Ghost always testifies of things that are true. By the fruits(evidence)we may know this.

I asked you before but I never saw a response:

How do you know these voices that you call the Divine Spectre aren't a simulation run by your brain, mimicking what it would expect of a god?

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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06-09-2015, 05:50 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
What gets me about the "Well, you can't see this other thing, either, but you still believe in it!" arguments is that, as far as I've seen, none of the things we can't see yet know to exist are sentient beings who are fully capable of making themselves visible and constantly played up as wanting to have deep relationships with us.

I think that kind of breaks the analogy a bit.

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08-09-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  So we're back to the Exclusive Deity, are we?
"Members only, sir."
"How do I become one?"
"Only members are allowed to apply for membership."
anyone can hear small, still voice of the Holy Ghost. Every person is born with light of Christ. Every person is son or daughter of God.
But not all people want to become members of God's Church.
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Also; what can be better than ANY testimony? Empirical evidence. Ask any legal professional. A legal scholar, a lawyer, a judge; they will all tell you that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, riddled with false memories and biases that make even completely honest testimony less than trustworthy unless backed by empirical evidence; DNA, footage, fingerprints, etc.
But witness knows what he/she knows. When I tell you something about God of this earth you can NOT know if what I say is true until God reveals to you what He revealed to me. Until He confirms to you that my testimony is true.
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Clearly not, if they think the heart gives them feels.
"heart gives me feels" is symbolism. Not literally.
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I asked you before but I never saw a response:
How do you know these voices that you call the Divine Spectre aren't a simulation run by your brain, mimicking what it would expect of a god?
sometimes it is hard to know the difference.
but sometimes you wonder: why do I have this thought now? why does this thought is not going away? why do I have this conviction that I have to follow what this voice(thought) tells me to do?
after you do what thought told you to do, you say: Oh, now I know why I had to follow instruction(the thought). If I never had this thought I would never done what it told me to do. If I never did what it told me to do I would never know how important it was. I saved someone's life, or my life was saved at this time, or I did something important for myself, I helped someone who really needed me and I didn't know that until still, small voice told me: "go and do it".

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08-09-2015, 07:08 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  So we're back to the Exclusive Deity, are we?
"Members only, sir."
"How do I become one?"
"Only members are allowed to apply for membership."

anyone can hear small, still voice of the Holy Ghost. Every person is born with light of Christ. Every person is son or daughter of God.
But not all people want to become members of God's Church.

No much to say about that other than remark that the only voices in my head I've heared have been my own.

(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Also; what can be better than ANY testimony? Empirical evidence. Ask any legal professional. A legal scholar, a lawyer, a judge; they will all tell you that witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, riddled with false memories and biases that make even completely honest testimony less than trustworthy unless backed by empirical evidence; DNA, footage, fingerprints, etc.

But witness knows what he/she knows.

No, the witness doesn't actually know what they know; just what they think they know, which is the problem. Witness testimony can become corrupted by the witness themselves within minutes of seeing what they saw, and the further we go in time the more the event will change as the witness is exposed to other's opinions and their own recollections and developing biases. Despite what we may like to think, it is well known that the brain is not actually very good at memory storage, which is why unbacked witness testimony in a court is viewed at best as dubious.

(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  When I tell you something about God of this earth you can NOT know if what I say is true until God reveals to you what He revealed to me. Until He confirms to you that my testimony is true.

You are right in that I can't know whether what you assert is true or not and that is the crux of the matter; until this god of yours shows itself, I have no reason to believe that anything you say about it is true.

(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Clearly not, if they think the heart gives them feels.

"heart gives me feels" is symbolism. Not literally.

It's time to update to a more accurate expression, then.

But 'my neurotransmitters activating, leading to a change in my synaptic potentials followed by neuronal firing gives me feelings' is a tad cumbersome.... Needs work.

(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(06-09-2015 05:12 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I asked you before but I never saw a response:
How do you know these voices that you call the Divine Spectre aren't a simulation run by your brain, mimicking what it would expect of a god?

sometimes it is hard to know the difference.
but sometimes you wonder: why do I have this thought now? why does this thought is not going away? why do I have this conviction that I have to follow what this voice(thought) tells me to do?
after you do what thought told you to do, you say: Oh, now I know why I had to follow instruction(the thought). If I never had this thought I would never done what it told me to do. If I never did what it told me to do I would never know how important it was. I saved someone's life, or my life was saved at this time, or I did something important for myself, I helped someone who really needed me and I didn't know that until still, small voice told me: "go and do it".

This response still has the inherent problem of how you can differentiate what you call your god and a simulacrum of god constructed by your brain.

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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08-09-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  anyone can hear small, still voice of the Holy Ghost. Every person is born with light of Christ. Every person is son or daughter of God.

Alla, this is why I believe you have not actually read the NT. You do not appear to know what is said in it! Please read this small sample. You will see what you have written above is false. Here it comes, actual scripture.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethWink

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

2nd Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2nd Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation , ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

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09-09-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  So I know many of us have heard this excuse when discussing religion with a religious person. We say we need evidence or that we can't believe it unless we see it. But I thought about something with this argument. Yes we can't see air but we can feel it against our skin. We are able to use one of our 5 senses to detect what we qualify as air. So this rebuttal is flawed and illogical.

Now most would then go to the ever so popular " I feel him in my heart, he spoke to me" routine and give you a clear example usually involving some awaking from doing bad things or he saved them in some way by telling them what to do. What I question is do they actually hear anything? Do they know how the human body functions in regard to hearing? Because in order to hear something it must be done by our ears. Now what they "heard" was their own thoughts in their head in some cases others there was a good logical reason to explain what was heard(something in the distance, etc.) so again flawed.

Anyway I was just thinking of this last night thought I'd put it out there for discussion. Thanks


This person is too ignorant to argue with. We have more than one sense. If we can't see air then we can feel it and smell it. As someone else already pointed out, we can compress it to a liquid and then we can see it. Arguing with this one would be like beating up on a 6 year old.

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09-09-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  No much to say about that other than remark that the only voices in my head I've heared have been my own.
That is what you say and I believe you.
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  But witness knows what he/she knows.
No, the witness doesn't actually know what they know; just what they think they know, which is the problem. Witness testimony can become corrupted by the witness themselves within minutes of seeing what they saw, and the further we go in time the more the event will change as the witness is exposed to other's opinions and their own recollections and developing biases.
True. But some parts of the testimony are true. So, when someone testifies something about God, the Holy Ghost will confirm only those parts which are true.
The same with the Bible. The Holy Ghost will confirm only those parts of the Bible which are not corrupted and true.
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  Despite what we may like to think, it is well known that the brain is not actually very good at memory storage, which is why unbacked witness testimony in a court is viewed at best as dubious.
I agree 100%. But when we talk about witnesses who testify about God we may know by the power of the Holy Ghost if what they say is true.
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  You are right in that I can't know whether what you assert is true or not and that is the crux of the matter; until this god of yours shows itself, I have no reason to believe that anything you say about it is true.
And I agree with you 100%. This is exactly my point in many my posts.
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  "heart gives me feels" is symbolism. Not literally.
It's time to update to a more accurate expression, then.
But 'my neurotransmitters activating, leading to a change in my synaptic potentials followed by neuronal firing gives me feelings' is a tad cumbersome.... Needs work.
Yes, when the Holy Ghost has influence on you He activates your neurotransmitters. But because we like symbols and its beauty we call it "heart gives me feel". It is easier to understand and to remember. Symbols are given for convenience.
(08-09-2015 07:08 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  This response still has the inherent problem of how you can differentiate what you call your god and a simulacrum of god constructed by your brain.
When your thoughts are confirmed by evidence than the Holy Ghost "fills" your body. ""Fills" your body" is the best description of influence of the Holy Ghost.
When you have your own thoughts you don't have this influence/conviction (which is hard to describe).
There is the difference. It is very unique thing when the Holy Ghost "fills" you.
it is very unique thing when Spirit(the Holy Ghost) speaks to another spirit(me).

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09-09-2015, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 02:58 PM by Alla.)
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(08-09-2015 07:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 04:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  anyone can hear small, still voice of the Holy Ghost. Every person is born with light of Christ. Every person is son or daughter of God.

Alla, this is why I believe you have not actually read the NT. You do not appear to know what is said in it! Please read this small sample. You will see what you have written above is false. Here it comes, actual scripture.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethWink

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

2nd Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2nd Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation , ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I don't understand which of those quotes contradict what I said?
I said that
1)every person is born with light of Christ. Do you know what light of Christ is?
2)every person is son or daughter of God. God is the Father of the flesh of ALL spirits. We all are literally spirit children of God
3)any person can hear still, small voice of the Holy Ghost. It doesn't mean every person hears this voice. But anyone can hear it.

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09-09-2015, 03:26 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(06-09-2015 11:37 AM)MrKrispy601 Wrote:  So I know many of us have heard this excuse when discussing religion with a religious person. We say we need evidence or that we can't believe it unless we see it. But I thought about something with this argument. Yes we can't see air but we can feel it against our skin. We are able to use one of our 5 senses to detect what we qualify as air. So this rebuttal is flawed and illogical.

Now most would then go to the ever so popular " I feel him in my heart, he spoke to me" routine and give you a clear example usually involving some awaking from doing bad things or he saved them in some way by telling them what to do. What I question is do they actually hear anything? Do they know how the human body functions in regard to hearing? Because in order to hear something it must be done by our ears. Now what they "heard" was their own thoughts in their head in some cases others there was a good logical reason to explain what was heard(something in the distance, etc.) so again flawed.

Anyway I was just thinking of this last night thought I'd put it out there for discussion. Thanks

Excellent point Krispy. Religion, as we all know, requires faith, which is the belief in something without evidence. If it had evidence, it wouldn't need faith, as it would simply be fact. So faith in the transcendental world is required. This argument reminds me of the "you have faith your wife loves you" bullshit posit.

You can't compare something for which we have abundant evidence (love, the actions of a real person) to a faith claim, which by definition is that for which lacks evidence. The idea my wife probably loves me is not a radical hypothesis. The idea that a being created the universe is an extraordinary claim. Equating an extraordinary claim with a mundane one, and then suggesting they both "require faith" is disanalogous.

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09-09-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: The "you cant see air but you know its there" rebuttal
(08-09-2015 07:24 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Okay, I call bullshit on this one: Nobody can speak as soon as they are born. Thank you for pointing out one more falsehood in the Bible. Cool

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