Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
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28-10-2016, 05:40 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2016 05:44 AM by Rahn127.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
Others will say this much better, but for better or worse, all agnostics who lack a belief in a god are also atheists.

You can label yourself an agnostic all you want, but you're still also an atheist. You may not want to use the atheist label in social circles, but if you lack the belief, then that's what atheist means.

Let's say someone somewhere believes they are from the planet Uranus. They believe they were born there and then through some process, transported to Earth.

If you don't believe that you personally are from Uranus, then you might be an Auranusist.

You can still be agnostic to the claim, saying that "I don't know for certain if I'm from Uranus, but most definitely I lack the belief that I'm from Uranus."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-10-2016, 06:38 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2016 06:43 AM by Velvet.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 05:40 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Others will say this much better, but for better or worse, all agnostics who lack a belief in a god are also atheists.

Exactly (I wish I could also type what I think without writing an essay everytime)

Will only add that the lack of the belief doesn't imply belief in the opposite claim.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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28-10-2016, 07:14 AM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
Prior to coming to TTA, I used to simply classify myself as an atheist. I'm a 6 (leaning more to a hard 7) on the Dawkins Scale. I changed "my label" when I came to TTA and I saw a post by (I think Chas?) who said being an agnostic atheist is the most defensible position (meaning by using the term "agnostic atheist," the burden of proof falls on the theist).
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28-10-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 07:14 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Prior to coming to TTA, I used to simply classify myself as an atheist. I'm a 6 (leaning more to a hard 7) on the Dawkins Scale. I changed "my label" when I came to TTA and I saw a post by (I think Chas?) who said being an agnostic atheist is the most defensible position (meaning by using the term "agnostic atheist," the burden of proof falls on the theist).

If I didn't say it, I should have. Big Grin

(I'm pretty sure I did.)

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-10-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(27-10-2016 05:46 PM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  I've considered myself agnostic (and yes I say "consider" because that's all you can do with labels) for about a year now after 5 years of being atheist. I only bring this up to note that I am well informed in the discussion. I'll even get cocky and say I'm more informed than most Tongue, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. Anywho...

If you have all the answers. Why ask the question?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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28-10-2016, 05:32 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 01:44 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  So, when you say that you are happy with "Unicorns don't/won't exist" you can't actually be sure.

We might gen engineer such a creature. We mighf travel amongst the stars and come across something which mets the definition and so, human nature being what it is, we'll call that a 'Unicron'.

This is another interesting discussion about existence of fictional and abstract objects. When one asks "Do unicorns exist?", there are two other questions you have to answer first: "What do you mean by 'unicorn'?" and "What do you mean by 'exist'?". By the way, I understand this is just to express the nuance behind terminology (which I agree with anyway), but I'm going to expand on this anyway because it has to do with something that Velvet brought up also.

I personally think that when people ask such a ridiculous question, they imply "unicorn" to mean "the fantastical creature from fairy tales" and imply "exist" to mean "is a living biological organism (redundancy ftw) that roams some planet". And by those definitions I can clearly say "no, they don't exist, because they are literally made from fairy tales". You could say unicorn means "horse-like organism with a conical extrusion from the head", in which case I wouldn't say that such a thing doesn't exist. But I don't think that is ever what is implied when the question is asked.

So I am quite firm in believing that unicorns don't exist. But, as you say, we could engineer a "horse-like organism with a horn" and call it a unicorn, in which case the terms would change and I couldn't say "unicorns don't exist". However, the essence of the term "unicorn" I used before still remains. I suppose it would just be described using different terminology.
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28-10-2016, 05:37 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 04:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  The second part is true in my experience, here and elsewhere the vast majority of atheists with whom I have interacted expand the eponymous to mean "agnostic atheist."

Oh, no no nooo, I meant that most atheists fit my modified meaning, that they believe no god exists. Quite controversial, I think.
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28-10-2016, 05:57 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 05:08 AM)Velvet Wrote:  You are wrong, your presumption that JuJu monster was "just made up" is not evidence against it, all "made up for the sake of the argument" gods have to be taken as seriously as any other claim for any god, you would not be rational to conclude a god isn't real just because he "looks very much like something that was made up on the spot to me", a claim sounding ridiculous or sounding fake cannot be used as evidence for its dismissal.

My brain broke thinking about this. I'm just gonna say that one I'm not convinced of your argument and second I'm just gonna leave it at it was half-joking remark, certainly not a rigorous argument. Smile You could look at my response to Peebothuhul for some more of my thoughts on this kind of topic though.
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28-10-2016, 06:00 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 05:40 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Others will say this much better, but for better or worse, all agnostics who lack a belief in a god are also atheists.

You can label yourself an agnostic all you want, but you're still also an atheist. You may not want to use the atheist label in social circles, but if you lack the belief, then that's what atheist means.

"The one thing I would like is for everybody to recognize that there is no strict definition of labels. I realize that there is a lot of disagreement about what it the labels mean even among everyone else in these forums. Some of you will say "Too bad, you're an atheist", some will say "Call yourself whatever you want". To the first group of people, I just want to reiterate: you're wrong. You could argue that your meaning of the label is better, but you can't simply invoke your definition as the correct one and force other people to accept."

And no, my agnosticism has nothing to do with social acceptance.
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28-10-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(28-10-2016 01:10 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  If you have all the answers. Why ask the question?

"I know a lot" =/= "I know everything"

As a matter of fact, the fact that I think I know a lot but still come looking for answers admits that there are things I don't know and should learn. If I thought I knew a lot and didn't ask any questions, that would imply that there is nothing more I need to know and in essence mean "I know everything".

For a more direct answer to your question, I ask because I'm looking for some interesting argument and ideas. I don't want people to think I'm completely ignorant and just repeat the same basic ideas that anybody hear has heard a thousand times.
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