Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
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29-10-2016, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 12:33 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 12:26 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(29-10-2016 11:58 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Could I have a belief that black people are likely to be thieves or burglars enough to always cross the street when I'm heading towards one at night, while STILL sincerely deny that this is something I'm convinced of?

Idk, i'm really asking, are you sure? Could you maybe point me to something more elaborated on the subject?

What is the belief that you're unaware of in the given scenario ?

Perhaps you are unaware that you believe that black people are aliens that only want to feed off human brains.

If so, why would you believe that ?

You might reply "I don't believe that"
My retort "That you are aware of"

The belief that black people are likely to be thieves or burglars.

Perhaps I am.

So, do I need a reason to believe it then? ok...

So lets say I was robed once by a black guy and got traumatized by it, and I don't even realize that now I avoid then on the street, and will sincerely deny that I hold a belief on the case.

Can we maybe skip all this and realize that ''if you hold a belief you must be aware of it'' its not a given fact that we may use? Or idk, point me somewhere explaining how belief works and shows that it requires awareness?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-10-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 12:24 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(29-10-2016 12:04 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I just did it so I obviously can. Also look on OP.

I should have written "you believed" though, as UnknownDevil reffered to the past in his OP.

Look to first post before you start whinning.

Yes, so you agree with me that you shouldn't have said that,


I don't really agree with you, I just think that I should put more attention to wording.

Quote: btw why are you being so rude? I'm new here so if you have some problem of chronic pain to justify your tune towards people you don't even know i'm unaware of that.


Read your own post. I'm not your child to be scolded - tone of your post set tone of mine.

Quote: Evidence doesn't speak for itself, it depends on you acknowledging as evidence.

We always had plenty of evidence for heliocentrism but we only saw this until copernicus and galileo.


Evidence that you can not see or comprehend is no evidence.

Quote: ''Evidence speaks for itself'' doesn't makes sense,


You're free to think so.

Quote: if you hold a belief that God doesn't exist, its a belief that you hold (based on evidence), you need belief, its just a justified one.

Maybe it is semantics or translation issue but I'm not holding the belief that god does not exist. I reject notion of his existence - I need no belief when lack of evidence speaks for itself (even if only for me).

It's far from the best article about atheism being lack/absence of belief but I see no real reason for further search: https://danielmiessler.com/blog/why-athe...gs.gBVYKp0

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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29-10-2016, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 01:15 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 12:43 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Maybe it is semantics or translation issue but I'm not holding the belief that god does not exist. I reject notion of his existence - I need no belief when lack of evidence speaks for itself (even if only for me).

I know that Atheism is not a belief, if you read my previous posts on this very thread you will see that we are actually in violent agreement as I touched this point very extensively.

But my point is that he also (like you and me) doesn't hold the belief that god doesn't exist.

He only rejects Theism.

Thats why I, as you said, scolded you, and I appologize for that, I just reacted due to me empathizing with the very offensive nature of having someone telling you what you are, despite you saying otherwise.

I spoke with Unknown a lot about that before he made this thread, his stance its that he rejects theism and rejects anti-theism but does`t fell comfortable as an atheist.

I still keep that ''evidence speaks for itself'' is wrong, it requires that you consider and ponder it otherwise is indistinguishable from not-evidence, it can be not only be ignored and disregarded but even go unnoticed, leading me to believe that although there is no evidence for the existence of god I can't still swallow that evidences ''speak for itself'', it requires you to look, analyze, ponder. Just like any data has no meaning or information unless the reader acknowledges it.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-10-2016, 12:59 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 01:07 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
@Velvet

Edit: I'm absent belief in god existence and that make me atheist. He sees atheism differently though, if I'm not mistaken.

As for evidence I still think that it is plain to see. It's just indoctrination and comfort of easy answers preventing people from noticing it.

I also appologize.



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The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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29-10-2016, 01:10 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 01:14 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 11:08 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If someone holds a belief about anything, they are aware of it.

After a bit of researching over that I found that belief does seem to imply intentionality, although I also learned that the whole concept of belief would soon-to-be obsolete as it would be redundant (in neurological level) with other more useful concepts (or something like that)

Anyways, well, as it is now, you are right (as far as I could look up about it until convincing myself that you are right)

So if you are unsure if you hold or not a believe that means you don't hold the belief.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-10-2016, 01:13 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 01:24 PM by Velvet.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 12:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I also appologize.

I wouldn't ever hold a grudge against a cat, you guys are the true owners of this world.

And yes, he seemingly thinks that the term ''atheist'' imply a belief in the not-existence of god, which it doesn't.

Anyways that raises some interesting questions, WL Craig uses Sagan's phrase ''absence of evidence doesn't equal evidence for absence'' in order to object the way atheism avoids the burden of proof by ''pretending'' to stand in neutrality.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-10-2016, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2016 01:33 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 01:13 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(29-10-2016 12:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I also appologize.

I wouldn`t ever hold a grudge against a cat, you guys are the true owners of this world.

I too wouldn't hold a grudge against Lenin's cat, it's too dangerous.

Fun fact - Lenin had cat who was smart enough to sit on his chair. No one was brave enough to chase him from it.

Edit: To be fair I saw such definitions of atheism. It's also not unheard of stance of polish, let's say believers in non-existence. From top of my head (don't have the relevant book with me) more than 10% of polish atheists claim that they believe in non-existence of god.

Edit 2: But one could say that absence of evidence where evidence should be is proof enough, i.e. god's mercy is suprisingly scarce for so loving being.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-10-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
I can't stop myself from feeling a bit of intellectual dishonesty in the way atheist debaters put themselves in neutral position when they obviously not only reject Theism but also hold the belief that Yahweh doesn't exist very dearly, just enough to avoid the burden of proof.

Is not like we don't have evidence in the bible that Yahweh can't be real anyway, we could accept the burden of proof, maybe they do that not to avoid the burden of proof but to avoid the Theist implying their position its a neutral one.

It may be pretentious and hypocritical of my part to imply dishonesty on the most brilliant debaters I know tho *bites tongue*

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-10-2016, 01:32 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
Double post.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-10-2016, 01:48 PM
RE: Theism, Agnosticism, and Atheism
(29-10-2016 01:10 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(29-10-2016 11:08 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If someone holds a belief about anything, they are aware of it.

After a bit of researching over that I found that belief does seem to imply intentionality, although I also learned that the whole concept of belief would soon-to-be obsolete as it would be redundant (in neurological level) with other more useful concepts (or something like that)

Anyways, well, as it is now, you are right (as far as I could look up about it until convincing myself that you are right)

So if you are unsure if you hold or not a believe that means you don't hold the belief.

Sometimes beliefs can be like breaths.
The longer you hold them, the more aware of them you are.

Smile

I think some of the things you were referring to would fall into the categories of fear, racism, gut reactions and maybe a bit of instinct survival thrown in for good measure.

Just like on a first date, we see a lot of visual cues from body language. We read between the lines going over in our heads what she said vs what she meant. Using all of these cues we can form beliefs about a person that may or may not be true.

I can see your point of view about having a first impression about someone without forming a formal belief.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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