Theist Excuses- Possession
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19-10-2014, 05:19 AM
Theist Excuses- Possession
Hey guys this is The Aesthetic Athiest from India

So here in India its not like other countries, i dont have to fight a single god like jesus or allah. I have got 33 crore gods to fight , which i do.

I have successfully helped 2 of my friends to make them question their belief about god and they're now atheists ! They questioned their family about the points i made to them with a LOGICAL explanations not magical one's. Their family , priest or nobody was able to answer them
here are few of them
1] If your holy book is the proof that god exist then my Batman comic is the proof that Batman exists
2] Why newborns with cancer
3] god wants us to see him ? LETS APPEAR ON A TOAST !
& many more
But their parents are much more orthodox, they dont have the capability or knowledge to even understand scientific experiments..so i had to stop
But the ultimate reason they argued is about possession
The Incident they told me with 5 eyewitnesses for it sitting next to me was this (i'll keep it short)
-> Friend's grandfather died
-> Distant relative informed
-> She doesnt knows how Grandfather behaved in his end time
-> After death she got 'possessed' by his spirit and acted same like him
ex :- Posture of sitting, voice, tone, & even said some things that only he said
Some highlighted points they told me were She DIDNT knew him well , that means a VERY long distance relation, it had been years since she saw him, nobody told her about his end time behaviour

This one example i had to study on google & found many things but due to my lack of knowledge in psychology i was not clearly able to understand how 'possession' is even possible
If anybody has any experience or knowledge regarding this excuse please enlighten me ...sorry for any mistakes, English is not my first language
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21-10-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(19-10-2014 05:19 AM)The Aesthetic Athiest Wrote:  But the ultimate reason they argued is about possession
The Incident they told me with 5 eyewitnesses for it sitting next to me was this (i'll keep it short)
-> Friend's grandfather died
-> Distant relative informed
-> She doesnt knows how Grandfather behaved in his end time
-> After death she got 'possessed' by his spirit and acted same like him
ex :- Posture of sitting, voice, tone, & even said some things that only he said
Some highlighted points they told me were She DIDNT knew him well , that means a VERY long distance relation, it had been years since she saw him, nobody told her about his end time behaviour

This one example i had to study on google & found many things but due to my lack of knowledge in psychology i was not clearly able to understand how 'possession' is even possible
If anybody has any experience or knowledge regarding this excuse please enlighten me ...sorry for any mistakes, English is not my first language

Were they eye-witnesses, or is this something they heard about from someone else?

Regardless, these types of things are never repeatable or verified by outside sources, which makes them useless for determining anything. Even if it did happen, how do they know this is proof of their 33 gods and not something else? That being said, people are really great at seeing what they want to see. I'm sure they were willing to see their grandpa in her more than they were actually seeing their grandpa in her.

There are a lot of cases of people "speaking in tongues" or otherwise being possessed by the spirit in Christian cultures. It turns out, when people get really excited about things, and they have an audience of supportive people, they are pretty good at faking these things on a subconscious level.
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21-10-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(21-10-2014 07:27 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(19-10-2014 05:19 AM)The Aesthetic Athiest Wrote:  But the ultimate reason they argued is about possession
The Incident they told me with 5 eyewitnesses for it sitting next to me was this (i'll keep it short)
-> Friend's grandfather died
-> Distant relative informed
-> She doesnt knows how Grandfather behaved in his end time
-> After death she got 'possessed' by his spirit and acted same like him
ex :- Posture of sitting, voice, tone, & even said some things that only he said
Some highlighted points they told me were She DIDNT knew him well , that means a VERY long distance relation, it had been years since she saw him, nobody told her about his end time behaviour

This one example i had to study on google & found many things but due to my lack of knowledge in psychology i was not clearly able to understand how 'possession' is even possible
If anybody has any experience or knowledge regarding this excuse please enlighten me ...sorry for any mistakes, English is not my first language

Were they eye-witnesses, or is this something they heard about from someone else?

Regardless, these types of things are never repeatable or verified by outside sources, which makes them useless for determining anything. Even if it did happen, how do they know this is proof of their 33 gods and not something else? That being said, people are really great at seeing what they want to see. I'm sure they were willing to see their grandpa in her more than they were actually seeing their grandpa in her.

There are a lot of cases of people "speaking in tongues" or otherwise being possessed by the spirit in Christian cultures. It turns out, when people get really excited about things, and they have an audience of supportive people, they are pretty good at faking these things on a subconscious level.

Yes sir, ALL OF THEM were eye witnesses including my friend, they were not literate enough to understand the terms conscious , subconscious & unconscious as they dismissed my point about it
Your point could be right, i tried to argue that why dont atheists get possesed or even kids who dont know the concept of ghost gets possessed but they kept claiming if she didnt meet grandpa since years how did she acted same as he did in his nearing death ...troubles me a lot because this is the only remaining point theists have that has not been solved by science (and the creation of universe)
I dont mind making a fool out of myself by not being able to answer, but i DO MIND not knowing it Confused
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21-10-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(21-10-2014 02:14 PM)The Aesthetic Athiest Wrote:  
(21-10-2014 07:27 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Were they eye-witnesses, or is this something they heard about from someone else?

Regardless, these types of things are never repeatable or verified by outside sources, which makes them useless for determining anything. Even if it did happen, how do they know this is proof of their 33 gods and not something else? That being said, people are really great at seeing what they want to see. I'm sure they were willing to see their grandpa in her more than they were actually seeing their grandpa in her.

There are a lot of cases of people "speaking in tongues" or otherwise being possessed by the spirit in Christian cultures. It turns out, when people get really excited about things, and they have an audience of supportive people, they are pretty good at faking these things on a subconscious level.

Yes sir, ALL OF THEM were eye witnesses including my friend, they were not literate enough to understand the terms conscious , subconscious & unconscious as they dismissed my point about it
Your point could be right, i tried to argue that why dont atheists get possesed or even kids who dont know the concept of ghost gets possessed but they kept claiming if she didnt meet grandpa since years how did she acted same as he did in his nearing death ...troubles me a lot because this is the only remaining point theists have that has not been solved by science (and the creation of universe)
I dont mind making a fool out of myself by not being able to answer, but i DO MIND not knowing it Confused

It's called bandwagon effect and confirmation bias. Who's to say she actually did act like grandpa? One person sees something in the behavior that reminds him of grandpa and points it out; people follow suit by interpreting things in a biased way.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-10-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
It's possible that the culture in which you live is even more superstitious than what is common in America, you won't find too many people willing to suspend judgement on any given phenomenon and wait for a scientific explanation. The whole possession thing sounds like them projecting their biases on an event combined with the person themselves accepting the cultural norms and going along with it.
It's just group psychology, I suppose a similar thing would be UFO abductees seeing similar aliens and relating similar tales of their abduction when in a hypnotized state.
The biases of the culture do serve to instruct the UFO abductee about what they should be seeing and it will guide the abductee to craft their delusion in accordance to what they have picked up in their culture.

This might prove useful: alien abduction

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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21-10-2014, 03:13 PM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(19-10-2014 05:19 AM)The Aesthetic Athiest Wrote:  -> After death she got 'possessed' by his spirit and acted same like him
ex :- Posture of sitting, voice, tone, & even said some things that only he said
Some highlighted points they told me were She DIDNT knew him well , that means a VERY long distance relation, it had been years since she saw him, nobody told her about his end time behaviour

Was his sitting posture, voice, and tone unusual just before he died? Was it unusual for elderly men in general? Since she had seen him, and heard about him before she may have been remembering earlier details. She may have been mimicking other elderly men that she knew better.

Were the things he said specific and unusual? If they were typical comments for him, or for others in his situation, then her being close enough to be counted right would not be unexpected, especially among people who want to believe it.

Nobody was talking about him in her presence? She had been told he died; chances are people were talking about him in general. It is easy to let hints and details slip that she could have picked up. It could even have been from general gossip over the years if anybody ever talked about him in her presence.

The information would have to be VERY specific before I'd even think to consider some sort of supernatural cause. The chances that she could act somewhat like somebody she'd known about for years, even distantly, are just not that unlikely.

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22-10-2014, 03:59 AM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(21-10-2014 02:48 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  It's possible that the culture in which you live is even more superstitious than what is common in America, you won't find too many people willing to suspend judgement on any given phenomenon and wait for a scientific explanation. The whole possession thing sounds like them projecting their biases on an event combined with the person themselves accepting the cultural norms and going along with it.
It's just group psychology, I suppose a similar thing would be UFO abductees seeing similar aliens and relating similar tales of their abduction when in a hypnotized state.
The biases of the culture do serve to instruct the UFO abductee about what they should be seeing and it will guide the abductee to craft their delusion in accordance to what they have picked up in their culture.

This might prove useful: alien abduction

America is nothing in comparison to idiotiness in India regarding superstition
you got a point there , they are superstitious , will check link u provided
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22-10-2014, 04:01 AM
RE: Theist Excuses- Possession
(21-10-2014 03:13 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(19-10-2014 05:19 AM)The Aesthetic Athiest Wrote:  -> After death she got 'possessed' by his spirit and acted same like him
ex :- Posture of sitting, voice, tone, & even said some things that only he said
Some highlighted points they told me were She DIDNT knew him well , that means a VERY long distance relation, it had been years since she saw him, nobody told her about his end time behaviour

Was his sitting posture, voice, and tone unusual just before he died? Was it unusual for elderly men in general? Since she had seen him, and heard about him before she may have been remembering earlier details. She may have been mimicking other elderly men that she knew better.

Were the things he said specific and unusual? If they were typical comments for him, or for others in his situation, then her being close enough to be counted right would not be unexpected, especially among people who want to believe it.

Nobody was talking about him in her presence? She had been told he died; chances are people were talking about him in general. It is easy to let hints and details slip that she could have picked up. It could even have been from general gossip over the years if anybody ever talked about him in her presence.

The information would have to be VERY specific before I'd even think to consider some sort of supernatural cause. The chances that she could act somewhat like somebody she'd known about for years, even distantly, are just not that unlikely.

you just mentioned every point i stated to them
According to THEM and only them, he started acting weird when was about to die, like unusual sitting pose , different way of speaking altough he was bedridden in his last years

You still got every point we could explain a dellusionist
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