Theist arguments that are making me crazy
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30-12-2012, 10:32 AM
Theist arguments that are making me crazy
I live in the deepest of the Deep South and have had discussions with theists who believe I'm going to hell, etc. the arguments they give that tire me out the most are these:
1. When I ask for proof, they say you just gotta have faith. No, I really don't gotta since I have a brain and need proof.
2. Morality comes from god and the bible. I wish I could force them to read the critique of the OT on this website but know they would not.
3. When I point out some of the biblical atrocities, they say god is loving but also judging.
4. When I ask them that if someone lives a moral and good life but doesn't believe in god, they answer yes, that person is sentenced to burn for eternity with no chance of parole. When I point out the cruelty of that, I get the same argument as #3 above.
5. When I ask how they reconcile bible crap with science, one person even said god destroyed the world then created it again 6000 years ago, hence the fossils and archaeological findings. Really????
6. They always use the bible as their source. When I point out that I do not agree with the historicity of it, they revert to the you-just-gotta-have-faith argument.
7. Ditto when they say they know in their hearts and I ask how to make this happen for me.


Anyhow, I just wanted to share my favorite tired, trite and worn out theist arguments for consigning me to damnation for having the temerity to think and question. If the decision to believe or not is so important, why does it not warrant more thought from them, the ones who say it is all-important? What are some of your most tired arguments? How do you respond to them?

Fun in the Bible Belt....
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30-12-2012, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2012 11:54 AM by Vosur.)
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Next time someone brings up the second argument, feel free to remind him that the Egyptian concept of morality Ma'at predates the Dead Sea Scrolls (oldest known OT manuscripts) over 2100 years. Drinking Beverage
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30-12-2012, 12:48 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Deep breath. Retain your calm and inner focus.

If you want advice? When they start in on this topic, call a time-out. Ask them what their goal in this conversation is. Is it simply to state aloud what they think? Or is it to convince you of something?

If the former, then they do, of course, have a right to do that. But they do not have the right to you as an audience, and you have every right to simply walk away. Leave them talking to a brick wall, or simply put your earbuds in until they're done. If they follow you, inform them that they're crossing the line from opinion to harassment. Simply put, you're not interested in their opinion on the topic, and you have no obligation to listen. They can say it all they want, but they have no right to an audience when they do say it. (For extra fun, if you have small children, you can make a point of drawing them away from the preachy types when they get started. This is also fun whenever you happen to spot a Catholic priest in a public place.)

If instead they ARE trying to convince you, that lets you set a threshold. If they're trying to convince you, then they must CONVINCE you. It lets you say, "telling me I have to have faith doesn't actually give me faith, it just tells me you have no way to convince someone who doesn't already have faith." It lets you say, "Yeah, that flood business doesn't account for fossils in different geological strata, radiocarbon dating, and other stuff like that, so I'm not convinced." If they say they don't believe in radiocarbon dating, respond that you're not trying to convince them, they're trying to convince you. (Or maybe they just have to have faith in science. But that's only if you're feeling viscous. What makes science so awesome is that you don't HAVE to have faith in it, you can reproduce any experiment you want.) If they keep up the bullshit (rather than producing something halfway thought out), you can start complaining that they obviously don't take the task of convincing seriously (witness how little thought and preparation they've put into it!) and listening to them further is most likely a waste of your time, given how awful their efforts have been up until now. Tell them that if that's the best they have to offer, then they're an embarrassment to their religion and should bow aside for someone who can actually do a halfway decent job of representing it. Tell them to leave it to professional clergy, good apologists (empty set), or anyone who's... you know... COMPETENT.

(Disclaimer: Don't do this with actual friends, family, or anyone you want to remain on good terms with it. Or if you do, be nicer about it.)

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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30-12-2012, 08:15 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
When they say something about their religion, ask them "Did god personally tell you that's going to happen ?
or did you read that in the bible ?"

You say I'm going to hell for not believing. "Did god tell you that ? Cause he never mentioned that to me"

Are you following what god has personally told you or a book that men wrote ?
If you're following a book then you aren't following god.
God doesn't publish books. He doesn't create online internet pages. He doesn't build churches or write songs.

People do all of that.

"Exactly where does your faith lie ?"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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30-12-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Basically any time something is "out of context", or they didn't have that information at the time. The old testament doesn't apply anymore followed by some reference to the ten commandments later on in the conversation.





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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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30-12-2012, 08:38 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
I'm a prophet - theists don't argue with me. Big Grin

As for you, move. Thumbsup

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30-12-2012, 08:40 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(30-12-2012 08:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  When they say something about their religion, ask them "Did god personally tell you that's going to happen ?
or did you read that in the bible ?"

You say I'm going to hell for not believing. "Did god tell you that ? Cause he never mentioned that to me"

Are you following what god has personally told you or a book that men wrote ?
If you're following a book then you aren't following god.
God doesn't publish books. He doesn't create online internet pages. He doesn't build churches or write songs.

People do all of that.

"Exactly where does your faith lie ?"
More interesting is that I recall a time in my life when I asked where I came to the determination of where things were being interpreted. I found more often than not that I got them from my pastor on sunday. This came to other thoughts, "Well how does he come to the determination of how he interprets this." and "How does he know the will of god?" especially when sometimes I didn't agree on his interpretation.

This made me eventually go from church to church looking for "a church I agreed with." and the most interesting part of that is that I always came back to whether or not I agreed or disagreed with the pastors interpretation since people tended to follow it like a herd of sheep. Interestingly enough they all had slightly different interpretations.

So it is good to ask them if they came to that conclusion themselves, or if their pastor told them that and if that had to come to that determination off of someone else's interpretation and then to ask them if they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they definitely know that's correct and if they could be wrong. How they know the will of god differently than others and why no one can seemingly agree.
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30-12-2012, 08:55 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
"1. When I ask for proof, they say you just gotta have faith. No, I really don't gotta since I have a brain and need proof."


Muslims, other Christian denominations take it on faith the other is wrong. Surely one (although all) must be wrong, but if you don't have evidence yours isn't more special or more worthy of being called "correct." (ect)

"2. Morality comes from god and the bible. I wish I could force them to read the critique of the OT on this website but know they would not."

I recommend memorizes or writing down these verses.
*Mark 4:10 In Jesus' parable of the sower, he told his disciples that he spoke to others in parables so they'd remain confused..."otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."
*Mark 7:10 Jesus taught that any child who cursed his parents should be killed according to OT law. ((This is also a good verse if you decide to use OT verses, which can be found on TTA's front page, pick from the most horrific ones.)
*Like 12:47 Jesus warned that a servant of God who does not heed his master will be "beaten with many blows." ((I think this is referring to slavery)

When you use these verses, don't mention where they are from right away, and don't say Jesus. Say "God" instead, and when they say "That's the OT", give them the full verse, these are in the NT verses.

3. When I point out some of the biblical atrocities, they say god is loving but also judging. "


That doesn't matter, an abusive parent can claim to love their child but still beat them.


"4. When I ask them that if someone lives a moral and good life but doesn't believe in god, they answer yes, that person is sentenced to burn for eternity with no chance of parole. When I point out the cruelty of that, I get the same argument as #3 above."


A parent that harms children is a bad parent, putting someone throw eternal pain is cruel, and very judging. But there isn't much love. (They'll then say that he gave you a chance)

God doesn't give you evidence for your reason to believe, it seems he wants you to take it on faith, but Christianity is a insignificant religion when you think about the thousands of Gods that people have worshiped. Assuming they relate this eventually to Pascal's Wager, if you believe in something you should believe it because you think it's true, however if there isn't enough evidence then...why believe in it? Wouldn't God know you simply "adopted" Christianity because you're afraid of the possibility of a Hell? That's not really believing in something, in my opinion.

5. When I ask how they reconcile bible crap with science, one person even said god destroyed the world then created it again 6000 years ago, hence the fossils and archaeological findings. Really????"
Ask them if they can list their proof. I suggest also finding some Scholarly articles and printing them out to show them on this matter.

"6. They always use the bible as their source. When I point out that I do not agree with the historicity of it, they revert to the you-just-gotta-have-faith argument."

Point out the errors in there- such as Bats are mammals, some of the geographical errors. I'm not that well detailed in the bible, so I'm sure someone else on here can give you better examples. [/font]
". Ditto when they say they know in their hearts and I ask how to make this happen for me."


Hitler deeply believed in what he was doing...just because you're vividly believing in something doesn't make it right.


Hope I helped, have fun debating with them.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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30-12-2012, 08:59 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Regarding number two, ask them where their European ancestors got their morality from before the advent of Christianity. If non-Christians are such immoral baby killers, how exactly did they survive long enough to produce the later generations that came to accept Christ? Saying morality only comes from the bible is a fantasy they tell themselves. History, ethology, and evolution don’t agree with them, however. As pointed out by Vosur, there are several neighboring cultures that have recorded systems of morality that predate the bible by millennia. Even the morality presented in the bible is not perfect, nor static. For instance, it was considered moral to kill someone for working on the Sabbath. But when is the last time you heard of someone being killed for such an offense? This means biblical morality is and was shaped by ever-changing cultural norms. But where did this sense of right and wrong come from? Ethologists have shown all social animals have some sense of morality. Most importantly, our ape cousins have a well-developed sense of morality. This is where evolution comes into play. If both humans and chimps have morality, this means it was a trait most likely held by our common ancestor who lived around 7 million years ago.
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30-12-2012, 09:02 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
It's the faith one that gets me the most... I got one relative that constantly tells me I just have to make a "leap of faith." Why in the hell would I do that? I have as much reason to do that as she has to have blind faith in the flying spaghetti monster. The fundamental misunderstanding here, as I see it, is that these people think blind faith is a good thing, whereas many of us see that as total gullibility. So of course we're not just going to "have faith."
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