Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
30-12-2012, 09:03 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(30-12-2012 10:32 AM)cjs Wrote:  I live in the deepest of the Deep South and have had discussions with theists who believe I'm going to hell, etc. the arguments they give that tire me out the most are these:
1. When I ask for proof, they say you just gotta have faith. No, I really don't gotta since I have a brain and need proof.
2. Morality comes from god and the bible. I wish I could force them to read the critique of the OT on this website but know they would not.
3. When I point out some of the biblical atrocities, they say god is loving but also judging.
4. When I ask them that if someone lives a moral and good life but doesn't believe in god, they answer yes, that person is sentenced to burn for eternity with no chance of parole. When I point out the cruelty of that, I get the same argument as #3 above.
5. When I ask how they reconcile bible crap with science, one person even said god destroyed the world then created it again 6000 years ago, hence the fossils and archaeological findings. Really????
6. They always use the bible as their source. When I point out that I do not agree with the historicity of it, they revert to the you-just-gotta-have-faith argument.
7. Ditto when they say they know in their hearts and I ask how to make this happen for me.


Anyhow, I just wanted to share my favorite tired, trite and worn out theist arguments for consigning me to damnation for having the temerity to think and question. If the decision to believe or not is so important, why does it not warrant more thought from them, the ones who say it is all-important? What are some of your most tired arguments? How do you respond to them?

Fun in the Bible Belt....

I would encourage you to try to get them to empathize through analogies and examples that you know they agree with. For instance, #6 is very common -- Christians quote the bible to us as if it's meaningful. It might help to ask them if they'd care if you quoted the Q'uran... or even better, quote the Q'uran! If they don't care what the Q'uran has to say about Jesus, then make sure they're clear that this is exactly how you feel when they quote the bible. Put them in your shoes so they understand your point-of-view.

When you point out bible atrocities and they defend them, give them examples of modern day genocide that they wouldn't agree with and compare it to bible conquests. This has been done with Jewish children comparing "General Lin" and "Joshua" quite successfully.

If they try to reconcile inconsistencies in their bible, point out inconsistencies in other holy books and the fact that people still believe them. My favorite example is the fact that very early in the Book of Mormon there's a story about a guy named Laban making a steel sword around the 4th century BCE. The first problem with this is that steel wasn't invented until roughly 2000 years after that. If a Mormon tried to defend that by saying God miraculously gave him the materials, one might ask how a word like "steel" even found its way into the Book of Mormon if Joseph Smith was translating ancient hieroglyphics (which obviously don't include words for not-yet-existent materials). And despite this, there are millions of believers in the Book of Mormon. Isn't it possible that the same thing that drives their belief despite the evidence is also causing Christians to believe the bible despite inconsistencies?

I could go on and on. Basically, it's not worth your time to argue if your arguments aren't even going to be considered. Make sure they understand *why* you're bringing up these lines of evidence, and why they'd do the same if they were in your position.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Starcrash's post
31-12-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(30-12-2012 08:55 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  "1. When I ask for proof, they say you just gotta have faith. No, I really don't gotta since I have a brain and need proof."


Muslims, other Christian denominations take it on faith the other is wrong. Surely one (although all) must be wrong, but if you don't have evidence yours isn't more special or more worthy of being called "correct." (ect)

"2. Morality comes from god and the bible. I wish I could force them to read the critique of the OT on this website but know they would not."

I recommend memorizes or writing down these verses.
*Mark 4:10 In Jesus' parable of the sower, he told his disciples that he spoke to others in parables so they'd remain confused..."otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."
*Mark 7:10 Jesus taught that any child who cursed his parents should be killed according to OT law. ((This is also a good verse if you decide to use OT verses, which can be found on TTA's front page, pick from the most horrific ones.)
*Like 12:47 Jesus warned that a servant of God who does not heed his master will be "beaten with many blows." ((I think this is referring to slavery)

When you use these verses, don't mention where they are from right away, and don't say Jesus. Say "God" instead, and when they say "That's the OT", give them the full verse, these are in the NT verses.

3. When I point out some of the biblical atrocities, they say god is loving but also judging. "


That doesn't matter, an abusive parent can claim to love their child but still beat them.


"4. When I ask them that if someone lives a moral and good life but doesn't believe in god, they answer yes, that person is sentenced to burn for eternity with no chance of parole. When I point out the cruelty of that, I get the same argument as #3 above."


A parent that harms children is a bad parent, putting someone throw eternal pain is cruel, and very judging. But there isn't much love. (They'll then say that he gave you a chance)

God doesn't give you evidence for your reason to believe, it seems he wants you to take it on faith, but Christianity is a insignificant religion when you think about the thousands of Gods that people have worshiped. Assuming they relate this eventually to Pascal's Wager, if you believe in something you should believe it because you think it's true, however if there isn't enough evidence then...why believe in it? Wouldn't God know you simply "adopted" Christianity because you're afraid of the possibility of a Hell? That's not really believing in something, in my opinion.

5. When I ask how they reconcile bible crap with science, one person even said god destroyed the world then created it again 6000 years ago, hence the fossils and archaeological findings. Really????"
Ask them if they can list their proof. I suggest also finding some Scholarly articles and printing them out to show them on this matter.

"6. They always use the bible as their source. When I point out that I do not agree with the historicity of it, they revert to the you-just-gotta-have-faith argument."

Point out the errors in there- such as Bats are mammals, some of the geographical errors. I'm not that well detailed in the bible, so I'm sure someone else on here can give you better examples.
". Ditto when they say they know in their hearts and I ask how to make this happen for me."


Hitler deeply believed in what he was doing...just because you're vividly believing in something doesn't make it right.


Hope I helped, have fun debating with them.
When it comes to atrocities visited by god I seem the get the justice argument, or his ways are not our ways.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes fstratzero's post
31-12-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(31-12-2012 02:43 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(30-12-2012 08:55 PM)Red Tornado Wrote:  "1. When I ask for proof, they say you just gotta have faith. No, I really don't gotta since I have a brain and need proof."


Muslims, other Christian denominations take it on faith the other is wrong. Surely one (although all) must be wrong, but if you don't have evidence yours isn't more special or more worthy of being called "correct." (ect)

"2. Morality comes from god and the bible. I wish I could force them to read the critique of the OT on this website but know they would not."

I recommend memorizes or writing down these verses.
*Mark 4:10 In Jesus' parable of the sower, he told his disciples that he spoke to others in parables so they'd remain confused..."otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."
*Mark 7:10 Jesus taught that any child who cursed his parents should be killed according to OT law. ((This is also a good verse if you decide to use OT verses, which can be found on TTA's front page, pick from the most horrific ones.)
*Like 12:47 Jesus warned that a servant of God who does not heed his master will be "beaten with many blows." ((I think this is referring to slavery)

When you use these verses, don't mention where they are from right away, and don't say Jesus. Say "God" instead, and when they say "That's the OT", give them the full verse, these are in the NT verses.

3. When I point out some of the biblical atrocities, they say god is loving but also judging. "


That doesn't matter, an abusive parent can claim to love their child but still beat them.


"4. When I ask them that if someone lives a moral and good life but doesn't believe in god, they answer yes, that person is sentenced to burn for eternity with no chance of parole. When I point out the cruelty of that, I get the same argument as #3 above."


A parent that harms children is a bad parent, putting someone throw eternal pain is cruel, and very judging. But there isn't much love. (They'll then say that he gave you a chance)

God doesn't give you evidence for your reason to believe, it seems he wants you to take it on faith, but Christianity is a insignificant religion when you think about the thousands of Gods that people have worshiped. Assuming they relate this eventually to Pascal's Wager, if you believe in something you should believe it because you think it's true, however if there isn't enough evidence then...why believe in it? Wouldn't God know you simply "adopted" Christianity because you're afraid of the possibility of a Hell? That's not really believing in something, in my opinion.

5. When I ask how they reconcile bible crap with science, one person even said god destroyed the world then created it again 6000 years ago, hence the fossils and archaeological findings. Really????"
Ask them if they can list their proof. I suggest also finding some Scholarly articles and printing them out to show them on this matter.

"6. They always use the bible as their source. When I point out that I do not agree with the historicity of it, they revert to the you-just-gotta-have-faith argument."

Point out the errors in there- such as Bats are mammals, some of the geographical errors. I'm not that well detailed in the bible, so I'm sure someone else on here can give you better examples.
". Ditto when they say they know in their hearts and I ask how to make this happen for me."


Hitler deeply believed in what he was doing...just because you're vividly believing in something doesn't make it right.


Hope I helped, have fun debating with them.
When it comes to atrocities visited by god I seem the get the justice argument, or his ways are not our ways.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrMRmEeCfJM

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Question's post
01-01-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
Thanks for the ideas everyone. As far as people coming out and asking me, that doesn't happen much (though it has). In the Deep South, you run into the situation, even in professional settings, where people assume, because I'm middle-aged and white and law-abiding, that I'm a Christian, preferably Baptist. They pray over lunch and talk about how God is good to them, or whatever. So they in essence have me as a captive audience because it's considered the height of rudeness to question or insult anyone's personal beliefs, though somehow it's ok for them to say how the evils of this world are because god is not in the schools anymore, for example, which to me is an insult to non-believers.

Also, in personal settings many friends are Christians and those who know me well know and respect that I am not. I explained this to those I felt needed to know where I'm coming from, those closest to me such as my BF. I told him faith is not an act of will and that I can't just make myself believe. But even those who respect my right to not believe say things in a group to the effect that their way is the right way.

My point is that here there is a huge double standard: Christians moan about how they are under attack and have the right to their opinion etc., but if I mention atheism, their belief in the rights of free speech quickly finds its limits. It does not extend to include the mere lack of belief or lack of agreement with them. I wish to keep my job and friends, so I don't make too many waves, but resent having to keep silent while they are allowed carte blanche.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjs's post
01-01-2013, 05:22 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(01-01-2013 01:47 PM)cjs Wrote:  Thanks for the ideas everyone. As far as people coming out and asking me, that doesn't happen much (though it has). In the Deep South, you run into the situation, even in professional settings, where people assume, because I'm middle-aged and white and law-abiding, that I'm a Christian, preferably Baptist. They pray over lunch and talk about how God is good to them, or whatever. So they in essence have me as a captive audience because it's considered the height of rudeness to question or insult anyone's personal beliefs, though somehow it's ok for them to say how the evils of this world are because god is not in the schools anymore, for example, which to me is an insult to non-believers.

Also, in personal settings many friends are Christians and those who know me well know and respect that I am not. I explained this to those I felt needed to know where I'm coming from, those closest to me such as my BF. I told him faith is not an act of will and that I can't just make myself believe. But even those who respect my right to not believe say things in a group to the effect that their way is the right way.

My point is that here there is a huge double standard: Christians moan about how they are under attack and have the right to their opinion etc., but if I mention atheism, their belief in the rights of free speech quickly finds its limits. It does not extend to include the mere lack of belief or lack of agreement with them. I wish to keep my job and friends, so I don't make too many waves, but resent having to keep silent while they are allowed carte blanche.
I always found it odd how a lot moan about being attacked, it's like they all came up with it as Atheism became more than just a few people.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Question's post
02-01-2013, 05:00 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
I repeatedly tell people I can't believe in something that has no evidence. Faith is not evidence, it's hearsay. That isn't even considered evidence in a court of law.

We know for a fact that there is no evidence, because if such evidence existed, the churches wouldn't need faith. The fact that faith is needed at all means there is no evidence.

Peter


"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence."

- Christopher Hitchens

"For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain."
- Gene Roddenberry
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Peter_24601's post
02-01-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(30-12-2012 09:02 PM)amyb Wrote:  It's the faith one that gets me the most... I got one relative that constantly tells me I just have to make a "leap of faith." Why in the hell would I do that? I have as much reason to do that as she has to have blind faith in the flying spaghetti monster. The fundamental misunderstanding here, as I see it, is that these people think blind faith is a good thing, whereas many of us see that as total gullibility. So of course we're not just going to "have faith."
Don't use the Flying Spaghetti Monster. A religious person here's you drag that into the discussion and they realize (correctly) that you're being ridiculous so they assume (incorrectly) that they've won the argument - they don't take the notion of believing in the FSM seriously at all.

Instead, use Allah. That is a serious religion with over a billion followers. Every Muslim took a "leap of faith" to worship Allah. Every Christian took a "leap of faith" to worship Yahweh. Everybody in both religions believe their leap of faith was correct and justified and that the other guys got it all wrong and took a bad leap of faith in a false religion. Who's right? Who's wrong?

Of course, your relative will quickly claim that her leap of faith is correct and Muslims are wrong. But come back with the fact that all billion+ of them are listening to their own holy spirit guiding their actions, their morality, and their faith - how can they all be wrong but yet they all come up with the same thing? It's one thing to miss the holy spirit's message and be misguided, aimless, lost. But to end up finding a path that a billion other people also found, using exactly the same leap of faith that Christians use, that's pretty hard to ignore.

And finally, isn't it odd that almost everyone who took a Christian leap of faith had Christian parents and lived in a predominantly Christian community, while almost everyone who took a Muslim leap of faith had Muslim parents and lived in a predominantly Muslim community - maybe our leaps of faith are nothing more than external influence from our parents and our community - where I come from, I call that "indoctrination".

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Aseptic Skeptic's post
02-01-2013, 07:09 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
@Red, I agree that it's odd that Christians feel under attack. I work at a public agency no less, and every time someone retires, ppl wax poetic about the retiree's "faith" and how it takes courage for him/her to pray over lunch in public. I think it would take much more courage for me to announce I'm an atheist in a podunk Southern town! Forget Survivor, I'd be dead or severely beaten, probably at the hands of the faithful.

@Peter, yes, I tell them that, but somehow rationality should not apply in this area. In fact, I am somehow deficient for using my reason when "faith" should take over. I don't get it either . . .

@Aseptic, I've used the accident-of-birth argument, and ppl admit that yes, things would be different, but that Christianity is still the right one, and it's their duty to tell everyone, hence missionaries. They say Islam is f'd up because of 9/11, suicide bombings, etc., but somehow Christianity is off the hook for all the crimes against women, Protestant/Catholic wars, Crusades, etc.

They just keep the fallacies coming! Fortunately I'm finding a few like-minded ppl. Yes, we do exist, deep in the Bible belt!! Mwahahaha!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjs's post
02-01-2013, 07:17 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
(30-12-2012 08:38 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm a prophet - theists don't argue with me. Big Grin


In sofar as all prophets are certifiable lunatics who would argue with you?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Janus's post
02-01-2013, 07:23 PM
RE: Theist arguments that are making me crazy
I hear ya, I live in Texas and there is few atheists, but my friends are pretty calm so we don't disagree over our religious differences.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Question's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: