Theist believe us ...why?
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11-10-2013, 06:00 PM
Theist believe us ...why?
I just want to point out a bizarre aspect of Theist. They credulously believe what we say, but just not the why.

I catch these moments quite often. I’ll be chatting with a theist about various topics. I’ll make a point by telling them something they do not know, and they usually accept it as true without verifying. Even when it’s problematic for their position.

An example: I was in a conversation with a theist about how we know evolution is true, and was offering examples of evidence. I was explaining vestal appendages, such as a whale’s pelvis, unattached to it’s spine, or any other part of it skeleton. It just floats in there for no reason. She immediately accepted that this was true (simply because I said it) and attempted to explain why “God” would have done that. I mentioned “vestigial genes” that sometimes produces tails in newborn humans, until they are surgically removed. She asked if it was hairy or furless, and assumed there must be some use for it. But for me this was the kicker…I told her chickens still have genes for teeth, only the genes are inactive or shut off, so they never manifest themselves, but they still do carry the genes for teeth! She pointed out that chickens do not have teeth. I said, yeah that’s the point. At some point in their evolutionary history their ancestral species did have teeth. They didn’t evolve to not have teeth by the gene disappearing. Rather it’s still there. It’s just shut off. We have tons of genes for parts we don’t have from ancestral species. Like genes for gills that, in humans, partially form in utero, but the rest of the genes for those gills never turn on, and instead genes to turn those partially formed gill bumps into our jaw and throat turn on instead. She couldn’t explain away why chickens had genes for teeth, but figured there must be a reason for them.

The funny thing is I could have told her anything. Saying chickens have genes for teeth sounds crazy, but she just believed it without even trying to verify it. It does have the added bonus of being true, but why would she just believe me when I could be making up anything? I think it’s because inside she knows that I, for one, don’t make things up, and because she understands my knowledge actually comes from knowing real things.

Here is the second example: This one is based on her own beliefs. She spouts off about various things it says in the bible. Like about why gay marriage is wrong, or that “God” only accepts marriage between one man and one woman. I then go into all these crazy stories in her book. I tell her the story of a “traditional” marriage in the bible, between one man, one woman, that woman’s sister, and both those women’s slaves as his concubines. Or of how Lot, the only worthy man in all of Sodom, had sex with both his daughters. Or how a man gave up his concubine to be gang-raped by an entire town, in almost the exact same story as Lot and Sodom and Gomorra, in order to, selfishly, not be raped himself, as they originally wanted. Oddly “God” did not destroy this “homosexual” town. Perhaps he softened on the gay issue by this point in the bible? Then he cut her gang-raped corpse up in twelve pieces, and “God” like this for some reason. Or the story of how “God” had a man sacrifice his own daughter. But unlike with Abraham, whom “God” intervened with, because it was just a test, “he” did allow this man to go through with killing his own daughter. Or about the talking donkey. Or “God” demanding that children and babies be murdered, and prepubescent girls raped for the rest of their lives by the very same men who murdered all their family and friends.

And instead of verifying what I said to see if it were true, she clearly did not know these things were in the bible, she just started explaining and justifying them. She went from marriage being one man, one woman, to saying, “I could see the benefit of having a second wife in the home. It would make it a lot easier to get things done, and put less burden on the one wife.” She, in real time, changed her position of “traditional marriage” because she simple believed what I said. (note: she never changed her view on gay marriage) I could have been making that all up. I told her there was a talking donkey, for “God’s” sake!

Every once in awhile, I wonder how they would respond if I did completely make up some batshit insane thing, just to see how they would defend any crazy thing as long as they believe it says it in the bible. Of course I still wouldn’t want to, because I want my points to win on honest merit. But also because there is so much batshit insanity in there to begain with.

I just find it amazing that they will believe anything I say (even though I am stating only the truth). They just don’t accept the way of it. Why did that donkey talk? Even though they didn’t know there was a talking donkey three minutes ago, they would already be prepared to say, “Don’t you think if “God” could create all things, he could make a donkey talk?”, but I would say, “Because it didn’t actually happen. Someone just wrote that it did”. Won’t agree with me on the why, but well still believe whatever I say is in there without even looking to see if it really is. Their boundless credulity amazes to me.

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11-10-2013, 06:09 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
I think the religious don't generally have natural skepticism. They believe in god after all. Skepticism makes you want to question, and verify information one uses to make decisions. Good for you for not taking advantage of gullabilty!
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11-10-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
It's laziness.

She's too lazy to think for herself. She lets you do the thinking for her because she accepts that you've actually read the Bible (which she hasn't been bothered to do.)

She likes to be told what to think by others in church, because that takes the onus off having to do it for herself.

No doubt she also prays as a solution to her problems. That means she doesn't actually have to do anything to solve them.

She dreams about heaven; a really nice place where everything will be made right for ever, because that means she doesn't have to put in the effort to make things right in the here and now.

She's cannon fodder, the hoi polloi, the gullible crowd, the consumer. Churches have a field day with her, as they exploit her weaknesses and laziness to empty her pockets.
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11-10-2013, 06:50 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
I see the same phenomena here so I wouldn't classify it as theistic behavior. In the science forum there is a thread titled, "Today's science lesson". Some people accepted a quote from a meme as a true quote from the person the meme was ridiculing.

The reason this happened is because many people didn't expect the OP to lie to them(the OP was probably fooled himself and not intentionally deceiving). Your theist friend has no expectation that you will lie to him/her, so when you tell him/her something she is going to assume it is truth unless she has reason to believe otherwise. I mean why would you lie? If she checks it out and finds that you lied you just look like an ass. You know this and she knows this.
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11-10-2013, 06:54 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
(11-10-2013 06:16 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  It's laziness.

She's too lazy to think for herself. She lets you do the thinking for her because she accepts that you've actually read the Bible (which she hasn't been bothered to do.)

She likes to be told what to think by others in church, because that takes the onus off having to do it for herself.

No doubt she also prays as a solution to her problems. That means she doesn't actually have to do anything to solve them.

She dreams about heaven; a really nice place where everything will be made right for ever, because that means she doesn't have to put in the effort to make things right in the here and now.

She's cannon fodder, the hoi polloi, the gullible crowd, the consumer. Churches have a field day with her, as they exploit her weaknesses and laziness to empty her pockets.

Dead on...

But I still don't get the part where she doesn't at least check her own book to see that what I says is in there is really in there. I'm using her stuff to make points against her own stuff. If I was discussing evolution with someone and that person tells me they something like, "Scientist recently discovered that there is a species of microscopic organism that uses three genders to reproduce. One is a male, another is a female, and the third only carries enough genetic information necessary for the construction of it's own cell, but contributes no DNA to the offspring. It's basically a segregate for the male and female. This process reproduces males, females, and segregates."

Now if I was told that, and asked what the evolutionary advantage was for this, and how this three gender system originated, I wouldn't just start pulling shit out of my ass to explain it and answer it as thought it were true, making myself look like a fool in the process describing in detail something that is not even real. I'd say, "I am not aware of that. I'll have to look into it."

And sometimes I am told things I did not previously know, that unlike that last scenario are actually true. And when I look into it I also learn more about it, and actually know and understand it so that I can actually know and explain it in the future.

Or perhaps realize that what that person said was only partially true, but they just misunderstood the information. Or whatever else.

But what I don't do is, foolishly, just start talking like I'm an expert on something I just heard about for the first time five minutes ago, and for all I know may not even true.

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11-10-2013, 07:02 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
(11-10-2013 06:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I see the same phenomena here so I wouldn't classify it as theistic behavior. In the science forum there is a thread titled, "Today's science lesson". Some people accepted a quote from a meme as a true quote from the person the meme was ridiculing.
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That's a good point.

(11-10-2013 06:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ...Your theist friend has no expectation that you will lie to him/her, so when you tell him/her something she is going to assume it is truth unless she has reason to believe otherwise. I mean why would you lie? If she checks it out and finds that you lied you just look like an ass. You know this and she knows this.

I get that, except for, I don't think she would think I would lie to her. But I know she thinks my view is wrong. So why accept what I say, "if" what I say is "wrong" by the very fact that it is in conflict with her beliefs, which she "knows" are right?

That's why I expect her not to trust what I say. Not because she doesn't trust me, but because she doesn't believe my position.

But still, if some one told me something, seemingly outlandish, or completely unknown to me before, I still question it, not disbelieve it, but question it until I can at least verify it, regardless of who says it.

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11-10-2013, 07:14 PM
RE: Theist believe us ...why?
(11-10-2013 07:02 PM)Raptor Jesus Wrote:  I get that, except for, I don't think she would think I would lie to her. But I know she thinks my view is wrong. So why accept what I say, "if" what I say is "wrong" by the very fact that it is in conflict with her beliefs, which she "knows" are right?

That's why I expect her not to trust what I say. Not because she doesn't trust me, but because she doesn't believe my position.

But still, if some one told me something, seemingly outlandish, or completely unknown to me before, I still question it, not disbelieve it, but question it until I can at least verify it, regardless of who says it.

First, she might think you are mistaken, but unless she is confident about her knowledge of the bible she isn't going to challenge you on it. Challenge her by saying the NT never mentions Jesus. She will either respond by saying you are lying or you just made a mistake.....why? Cause she is confident that the NT does in fact mention Jesus.

Second, a talking donkey isn't anymore outlandish than a talking burning bush. You tell me the bible mentions a talking donkey, and I don't think you're a liar. I will give your claim some credibility because I know the bible talks about a talking burning bush.
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