Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
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29-02-2012, 02:07 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you're saying "one cannot %100 prove the existence of God based on empirical evidence"...

...because there is none.

YES!

It's all in your head, because there is no other place it could be.
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29-02-2012, 02:13 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 02:07 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 01:54 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you're saying "one cannot %100 prove the existence of God based on empirical evidence"...

...because there is none.

YES!

...so, what exactly are we arguing?

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29-02-2012, 02:20 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 02:13 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...so, what exactly are we arguing?

We're not on this point. That is good.
Glad we agree.

God remains a hypothesis until something pushes it beyond that.

Are we agreed on this point as well?

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29-02-2012, 02:23 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 02:20 PM)TalladegaTom Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 02:13 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...so, what exactly are we arguing?

We're not on this point. That is good.
Glad we agree.

God remains a hypothesis until something pushes it beyond that.

Are we agreed on this point as well?

Yes. Which was the point of my note I wrote. That point for Christians is the faith that is given to us.

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29-02-2012, 02:30 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 02:23 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes. Which was the point of my note I wrote. That point for Christians is the faith that is given to us.

Good.
My point is that faith is vacant and should not be trusted.
Here, I imagine we will disagree.




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29-02-2012, 02:45 PM
 
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
I would like to say that the more I consider KC's argument, the more I am inclined to believe it. Actually, I think I've pretty much agreed with it all along. God cannot be proven empirically. I think the reason is twofold: first, God doesn't allow it because faith is the main way in which we grow spiritually. Once you prove God so that He cannot be doubted, the Father/free-will child relationship ends and the Creator/creature relationship begins and all spiritual growth stops. After all, spiritual growth is by definition our evolution toward a union with God. If we are not approaching God, we are not evolving. If we are suddenly sucked into God as infants, we remain infants.

The second reason is the nature of God vs. empirical evidence to begin with. Veridicans believe that everything is made from the substance of God; therefore, we are made from the substance of God; therefore, we are missing the forest for the trees in the most extreme way. We have nothing which we can compare God to. We can't differentiate God in anyway with anything. In order for us to see God empirically, there would have to be at least one thing that wasn't made from the substance of God, but there is no such thing.

And we can take this even one step further: If God could be proved empirically, it wouldn't be God. In other words, it's necessarily so that God cannot be proven empirically.

So, why doesn't God come down and appear in my room as a vision and say, "I am He." My answer is again twofold: First, He loves me and wants me to keep growing. Second, the precognitive experiences I have had in my life have at times left me feeling very shaken mentally. So much so that I hope I never have another one. I don't want to see future events; it's not cool; it's simply disturbing to me. Imagine what a vision like that would do? And where would be the proof? How could that ever be differentiated from a hallucination?

So, why doesn't God then come to me, "I am He," again, and then show me supernatural signs to prove he is real, and then let me walk on water with him, so I would know it is Him. Answer: I don't know. But if He did, I would only want to know what I was supposed to do so I could end my life and exit this world. Why would I want to stay in it? This world would no longer be real to me. I would effectively become insane. After all, what's the difference between believing you see something that isn't really there and completely doubting that what is really there is real? It's insanity either way, the latter probably being far more dangerous.

So, to my atheist friends I say:






And that's the truth.
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29-02-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
Egor, this new you is amazing.

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29-02-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
You have a good point about him showing himself to a single person and then you thinking yourself crazy. Others would think you're crazy too if you tried to tell them about it!

So why is it that we're so willing to believe it when some crazy dude thousands of years ago told everyone about their hallucination and then we treat it as if it were real? We certainly wouldn't do that today.

And as far as God proving himself, sure it wouldn't work to show himself to just one person. He'd need to reveal himself to everyone. But the whole principal of faith as a requirement for spiritual growth is a perfectly evolved answer because such growth can't be definitively demonstrated because spirituality itself cannot proven to be real. It makes a great answer to those who want proof. You can't prove that God doesn't exist... but you could prove he does exist if the evidence were present... but since he doesn't want the evidence to exist, you can't prove that God does exist. It's an endless mental racetrack!
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29-02-2012, 03:06 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 03:02 PM)kineo Wrote:  You have a good point about him showing himself to a single person and then you thinking yourself crazy. Others would think you're crazy too if you tried to tell them about it!

So why is it that we're so willing to believe it when some crazy dude thousands of years ago told everyone about their hallucination and then we treat it as if it were real? We certainly wouldn't do that today.

And as far as God proving himself, sure it wouldn't work to show himself to just one person. He'd need to reveal himself to everyone. But the whole principal of faith as a requirement for spiritual growth is a perfectly evolved answer because such growth can't be definitively demonstrated because spirituality itself cannot proven to be real. It makes a great answer to those who want proof. You can't prove that God doesn't exist... but you could prove he does exist if the evidence were present... but since he doesn't want the evidence to exist, you can't prove that God does exist. It's an endless mental racetrack!

Trying to form a coherent reply. For some reason, my thoughts are coming out as a jumbled mess.

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29-02-2012, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-02-2012 03:13 PM by kineo.)
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
It's because you're dizzy. It's understandable, it was a long journey that ended right where it started. Big Grin
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