Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
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29-02-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
Why doesn’t God reveal Himself to everyone a remove all doubt?

1) Everyone would believe in God. It wouldn’t be debatable. God would be as true as “we live on the planet Earth”. Faith would no longer be a prerequisite for belief.
2) Faith is required for salvation.
3) Empirical evidence for God removes faith; therefore, knowledge of God is tangible and obtainable for all. This goes against God’s predestined plan.
4) God created our biological process of logic and reasoning, so if He gave everyone undeniable proof that He was God, according to the order that He created in us biologically and logically, we would HAVE to believe in God. This goes against His aforementioned plan because only the elect are to believe in Him.
5) God chooses to not reveal Himself empirically because it would remove the faith that His plan is built around for His elect.

Now, a whole new set of questions arise.

What about the ones that God did reveal Himself to empirically? Did they have faith? Or, was their faith removed because they knew?

Great… something else to study…

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29-02-2012, 03:36 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
Why is faith required for salvation? Of all the things to ask someone to do, belief without evidence is the most bizarre.
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29-02-2012, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 29-02-2012 03:48 PM by kineo.)
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
If you are elected to have faith, can you really have faith? Is it real faith? You didn't actually choose to have faith, you were chosen to have faith. Doesn't that devalue faith? In my mind it devalues it completely.

And even more important to one who doesn't believe- faith is the premise the the entire religion is built upon. Which is convenient because the same would be true for something completely made up. But this importance placed on faith emphasizes just how much the religion in its infancy needed people to believe it despite the lack of any real evidence; it shows that god was not present then just as he is not present now.

What makes faith so important? Clearly from a religious perspective God sets the rules and we just follow them. But from a humanist perspective- nothing. Faith is worthless in this context, except that it's the glue that holds the entire sham together.
Don't mind me... it was an early day today and my brain is functioning at... something.. or less... or.
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29-02-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
I agree with the previous questions of why is faith so important being key... but I am curious to why it seemingly hasn't been important to God in the past.

If it is now definitive that we need faith... why did God demonstrate himself to people according to The Bible. He spoke with Abraham, wrestled Issac, sent Angels to Lot, and demonstrates various miracles and dictations through Moses or Jesus... Those people didn't need faith.

Those people were able to supposedly observe God's direct impact or interact with his angels yet somewhere faith became more important. People are condemned to believe via a collection of books with faith to understand.
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29-02-2012, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 29-02-2012 04:09 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 03:38 PM)kineo Wrote:  If you are elected to have faith, can you really have faith? Is it real faith? You didn't actually choose to have faith, you were chosen to have faith. Doesn't that devalue faith? In my mind it devalues it completely.

This is going back to the origin of the argument of freewill vs election. So, the answer is no, but that doesn't devalue faith. Faith is a gift to the elect.

Quote:And even more important to one who doesn't believe- faith is the premise the the entire religion is built upon. Which is convenient because the same would be true for something completely made up. But this importance placed on faith emphasizes just how much the religion in its infancy needed people to believe it despite the lack of any real evidence; it shows that god was not present then just as he is not present now.

And, this exact point is what I would argue... but, from the opposite end. It's the unbeliever's lack of faith that prevents them from understanding faith; and, really, it gives more credence to election. As I've done before, I like to point back at John 8.

Having faith is unexplainable. I have faith because I have faith because it's given to me from God... if that makes sense. Those that do not have faith cannot understand faith because they are not of God and haven't received the gift. It's foreign and and incomprehensible.


(29-02-2012 04:07 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I agree with the previous questions of why is faith so important being key... but I am curious to why it seemingly hasn't been important to God in the past.

If it is now definitive that we need faith... why did God demonstrate himself to people according to The Bible. He spoke with Abraham, wrestled Issac, sent Angels to Lot, and demonstrates various miracles and dictations through Moses or Jesus... Those people didn't need faith.

Those people were able to supposedly observe God's direct impact or interact with his angels yet somewhere faith became more important.

Yeah, this is the question that I have too... working on answering it, though.

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29-02-2012, 04:42 PM
 
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 03:02 PM)kineo Wrote:  You have a good point about him showing himself to a single person and then you thinking yourself crazy. Others would think you're crazy too if you tried to tell them about it!

That’s true. I suppose he could show himself en masse, but that would lead to the other problems regarding faith.

Quote:So why is it that we're so willing to believe it when some crazy dude thousands of years ago told everyone about their hallucination and then we treat it as if it were real? We certainly wouldn't do that today.

Not true. People do that in cults all the time. Hell, people do that in my martial arts class. I swear six months from now, I think my instructor is going to declare himself God, and only half the class will leave.

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Quote:And as far as God proving himself, sure it wouldn't work to show himself to just one person. He'd need to reveal himself to everyone. But the whole principal of faith as a requirement for spiritual growth is a perfectly evolved answer because such growth can't be definitively demonstrated because spirituality itself cannot proven to be real. It makes a great answer to those who want proof. You can't prove that God doesn't exist... but you could prove he does exist if the evidence were present... but since he doesn't want the evidence to exist, you can't prove that God does exist. It's an endless mental racetrack!

Well, yeah. It boils down to a choice one has to make. If one chooses to be an atheist, they have evidence they can look at, arguments they can rationalize, and a social network of academics to back them up. If one chooses to believe, they have all of that as well.

If you choose to believe, you will find support for that belief. If you choose not to believe, you will find support for your atheism.

I think God deliberately makes it exactly 50-50. And this is not a secret. Jesus said,

“So then ask, and it will be given to you. Seek, and you will find. Knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and everyone who seeks, finds; and to everyone who knocks, the door is opened.” (VGJC 7:29)

This being the case, we have to initiate the action. We have to seek first. We have to request. Seems to me like a perfect way for God to weed out the ones he wants and doesn’t want.
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29-02-2012, 04:55 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
This is nuts. He's got it planned for you to have faith and for me to have none before we are even born - god's plan.

He is omniscient and so he knows all this ahead of time. He is omnipotent and so he can make it all the way he wants.

So what is life, a movie he writes the script for then enjoys watching as everyone toils around here on earth? And he knows the end anyway, of course, he wrote it.

So he must just enjoy seeing people go through all the heartache and physical pain etc.

How sick!

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29-02-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 04:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 04:07 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I agree with the previous questions of why is faith so important being key... but I am curious to why it seemingly hasn't been important to God in the past.

If it is now definitive that we need faith... why did God demonstrate himself to people according to The Bible. He spoke with Abraham, wrestled Issac, sent Angels to Lot, and demonstrates various miracles and dictations through Moses or Jesus... Those people didn't need faith.

Those people were able to supposedly observe God's direct impact or interact with his angels yet somewhere faith became more important.

Yeah, this is the question that I have too... working on answering it, though.

I'm thinking this could take a while. ...

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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29-02-2012, 07:18 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 04:08 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(29-02-2012 04:07 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I agree with the previous questions of why is faith so important being key... but I am curious to why it seemingly hasn't been important to God in the past.

If it is now definitive that we need faith... why did God demonstrate himself to people according to The Bible. He spoke with Abraham, wrestled Issac, sent Angels to Lot, and demonstrates various miracles and dictations through Moses or Jesus... Those people didn't need faith.

Those people were able to supposedly observe God's direct impact or interact with his angels yet somewhere faith became more important.

Yeah, this is the question that I have too... working on answering it, though.


Here's a hint: Hebrews 11. Abraham and the hit parade of OT "heroes" are credited with faith, even though to me it doesn't seem like it was faith if they got to see angels and wrestle with YHWH in person and all that good stuff.

Of course, after at least 200 years of intensive archaeology, not one shred of evidence exists for anything mentioned in the Bible until you get to 2nd Samuel and the life of David who MIGHT have existed, and very likely everything in the Torah and after was written in order to serve as an apologetic as to why the former Canaanites, now renamed Israelites, exist and why they should be lead by some petty warlord who went around ambushing the cultured Philistines and then giving them a bad name in the meantime and this might be the longest run on sentence I've ever composed so I'm pretty jazzed about that.

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29-02-2012, 07:40 PM
RE: Theistic Absolutism: A question I'm asking Christians.
(29-02-2012 07:18 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  and this might be the longest run on sentence I've ever composed so I'm pretty jazzed about that.

Learn German, you can make a sentence that's a page long and throw all the verbs on the end.

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