Theistic Evolution Questions
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15-02-2017, 05:50 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 05:39 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Do you have a link?

I don't see how it's possible to "dismiss" the possibility without simply assuming it is false, or by other indirect assumptions. But I'm willing to read and see.

I don't assume it's false. I just don't care either way. It makes no practical difference.

Sure. This entry goes into content externalism as a response to skepticism. I don't think the revelational epistemologist can appeal to content externalism though. They don't posit their own mind as their starting point. To them, everything starts with God's revelation. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skept...ternalism/

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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15-02-2017, 06:02 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 05:22 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 03:30 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  There is never any way of distinguishing this reality from a "brain in a vat". You can only assume, or state, that this is not the case.

I think content externalism has a very good response to the BIV hypothesis. I don't think assumptions solve the problem. Assumptions are the epistemological equivalent to bare assertion.

Just skimming the conclusion of the information you linked to.

"We have seen that the BIV hypothesis may well be refutable, given semantic/content externalism and given the assumption that one has a priori knowledge of some key semantic properties of one's language (or, alternatively, a priori knowledge of the contents of one's mental states)."

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15-02-2017, 06:10 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 05:50 AM)Naielis Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 05:39 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Do you have a link?

I don't see how it's possible to "dismiss" the possibility without simply assuming it is false, or by other indirect assumptions. But I'm willing to read and see.

I don't assume it's false. I just don't care either way. It makes no practical difference.

Sure. This entry goes into content externalism as a response to skepticism. I don't think the revelational epistemologist can appeal to content externalism though. They don't posit their own mind as their starting point. To them, everything starts with God's revelation. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/skept...ternalism/

Thanks. Wow, that is a lot of stuff. I'll have to analyse it when my brain is working better.

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15-02-2017, 06:19 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 06:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 05:22 AM)Naielis Wrote:  I think content externalism has a very good response to the BIV hypothesis. I don't think assumptions solve the problem. Assumptions are the epistemological equivalent to bare assertion.

Just skimming the conclusion of the information you linked to.

"We have seen that the BIV hypothesis may well be refutable, given semantic/content externalism and given the assumption that one has a priori knowledge of some key semantic properties of one's language (or, alternatively, a priori knowledge of the contents of one's mental states)."

Tongue

Ah yes, I just saw this. There it is.

The entire article seems to be based on logical arguments alone, and not on evidence for a testable hypothesis. Such logical arguments always require assumptions. The way logic works, for one thing.

Here's my refutation to any refutation to BIV:

"How do you know you're not a BIV which has been carefully designed to make your argument seem entirely convincing, so that one would conclude you are not a BIV?"

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15-02-2017, 06:35 AM
Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 12:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 12:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Primitive people weren't trying to make sense of how things came about. Religious myth, weren't precursor to curiosities latter occupied by science.

You really are a totally ignorant fool.
They were and it was.

And the evolutionary function of such an interest/design?




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"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 07:07 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 06:35 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 12:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You really are a totally ignorant fool.
They were and it was.

And the evolutionary function of such an interest/design?




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Are you serious?
The curiosity to investigate how and why things happen, and the intelligence to do so are clearly advantageous traits for survival.
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15-02-2017, 07:13 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
It's a consequence of the pattern-seeking brain, T. I know they have explained it to you before.

In order to hunt, one must be able to think about the pattern, understand it, and then build predictions out of those patterns in order to anticipate the prey ("it was here... moving that way... so I go ambush it down over there...), and thus there exists a strong Natural Selection pressure favoring those individuals who are better at this. High level pattern-seeking is evolved by any predatory species, especially pack hunters who have to cooperate. In even higher level forms, such as in chimpanzees, you can even see applied teaching of ideas that help the group, such as how to analyze footprints to tell where the "enemy" troop of chimps their war-party is pursuing went.

Humans have even larger brains, and in us the need to understand the patterns around us started to include the "why"... and as storytelling social creatures, we started making up stories that satisfactorily explained the pattern: "why does the sun come out during the daytime to give light and heat?" Well, it's Apollo on his chariot, of course! We see the pattern and we need to understand it, to explain it... even at the expense of making a bad guess.

Most people have a really hard time with the "I don't know" answer. So we make things up. We make up sun gods, and storm gods, and gods of death, all to explain Why Things Are The Way They Are™. You see this in whatever mythological tradition you might care to examine. Often, people are quite aware that their explanations aren't likely to be reality-- the Greeks were known to openly mock the idea that the gods actually did the things their tradition said they did, such as Apollo's Sun Chariot-- but they cling to them anyway because of tradition and preferring a bad explanation over no explanation.

Often, people like these ad hoc traditions so much that they will cling desperately to them, even in the face of a significantly better explanation.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-02-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 07:07 AM)Rik Wrote:  The curiosity to investigate how and why things happen, and the intelligence to do so are clearly advantageous traits for survival.

Ah okay, so religious myths that contain origin stories, are a product of investigative curiosities? A product of an investigative curiosity on how we got here? And I'm guessing you don't realize that such myths, their formations, considerations, lack even an iota of investigative qualities at all, a basic series of "whys" any person given such a response to their investigative curiosities would have asked.


Here's another things, my parents don't have such a curiosity regarding origins, nor their siblings, nor do their parents, their immigrant communities. Nor did I, until somewhere in my twenties, primarily as the result of being interested in theistic vs atheist debates. And the difference between you and them, or other that lack such an interest, isn't a result of genetic difference. But rather cultural, environmental differences.

That you particular interest arose our of certain cultural and historical factors, but not biological inherent factors. You project your own personal environmental produces interest, as a universal, project on onto those well outside of those cultural/historical factors unique to your present condition.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2017 07:40 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 07:13 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Humans have even larger brains, and in us the need to understand the patterns around us started to include the "why"... and as storytelling social creatures, we started making up stories that satisfactorily explained the pattern: "why does the sun come out during the daytime to give light and heat?" Well, it's Apollo on his chariot, of course! We see the pattern and we need to understand it, to explain it... even at the expense of making a bad guess.

But they don't they're entirely unsatisfactory responses to "why", to the supposed "pattern". And unblushingly, and boldly unsatisfactory in this regard. I mean you have two different accounts of Genesis written side by side. You have interpretive traditions that tell a variety of different renditions of these same stories. You're surrounded by other religious communities that offer their own takes. But no one cared, no one placed any effort in addressing any of this, which is rather weird if you suggesting here about it being the result of seeking a satisfactory answer to why, was the reason.

What you and other atheists are doing, is projecting your own interest onto the past, likely because you're not entirely aware of what the source of such interest might be for you, since you seem to want to imagine it as a part of your inherent biology. You're trying to relate, empathize to these ancient communities, but it's well off the mark here.

And as I pointed out, your interest is not universal, it might be common among those you hang out with, your homies, like an interest in football, but it's not universal. . You can look at a wide variety of communities, and see that they have very little interest in such questions, exhibit a considerable degree of apathy to such curiosities.

I think one fundamental aspect that atheists seem to miss, is that religion is not thought directed, as it is behavior/action directed. It's interest is not in ideal thought, but in directing ones community, oneself, to the way they "ought to be". IN our modern predicament these roles are brokenoff into a wide variety of areas, in-advertently taking on that responsibility.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 08:19 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 07:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  .... Wrote stuff....
Laughat

Laugh out load

What a load of twaddle.

Other folks are doing a bang up job of both trying to get Tomasia to actually reply to something as well as illustrating the flaws and faults in said comments. Thumbsup
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