Theistic Evolution Questions
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15-02-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 08:19 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Other folks are doing a bang up job of both trying to get Tomasia to actually reply to something as well as illustrating the flaws and faults in said comments. Thumbsup

I sincerely wish that were case.

The problem I find is that people here rarely ever illustrate. Take Unbeliever's unwillingness to illustrate his disagreements, as an example in the other thread.

The common pattern is, to say claim your wrong, but never illustrate why you're wrong. To claim you suggestion is false, but never really illustrate what's false about it, etc.....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 08:52 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 08:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 08:19 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Other folks are doing a bang up job of both trying to get Tomasia to actually reply to something as well as illustrating the flaws and faults in said comments. Thumbsup

I sincerely wish that were case.

The problem I find is that people here rarely ever illustrate. Take Unbeliever's unwillingness to illustrate his disagreements, as an example in the other thread.

The common pattern is, to say claim your wrong, but never illustrate why you're wrong. To claim you suggestion is false, but never really illustrate what's false about it, etc.....

This is Trumpian levels of bullshit. Deny deny deny.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2017, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2017 09:10 AM by Tomasia.)
Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 08:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I sincerely wish that were case.

The problem I find is that people here rarely ever illustrate. Take Unbeliever's unwillingness to illustrate his disagreements, as an example in the other thread.

The common pattern is, to say claim your wrong, but never illustrate why you're wrong. To claim you suggestion is false, but never really illustrate what's false about it, etc.....

This is Trumpian levels of bullshit. Deny deny deny.


Glad we agree.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 09:05 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 09:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This is Trumpian levels of bullshit. Deny deny deny.


Glad we agree.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can see you don't understand. I am pointing out that you are a liar of epic proportions. Do you still agree?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2017, 09:35 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 07:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 07:07 AM)Rik Wrote:  The curiosity to investigate how and why things happen, and the intelligence to do so are clearly advantageous traits for survival.

Ah okay, so religious myths that contain origin stories, are a product of investigative curiosities? A product of an investigative curiosity on how we got here? And I'm guessing you don't realize that such myths, their formations, considerations, lack even an iota of investigative qualities at all, a basic series of "whys" any person given such a response to their investigative curiosities would have asked.


Here's another things, my parents don't have such a curiosity regarding origins, nor their siblings, nor do their parents, their immigrant communities. Nor did I, until somewhere in my twenties, primarily as the result of being interested in theistic vs atheist debates. And the difference between you and them, or other that lack such an interest, isn't a result of genetic difference. But rather cultural, environmental differences.

That you particular interest arose our of certain cultural and historical factors, but not biological inherent factors. You project your own personal environmental produces interest, as a universal, project on onto those well outside of those cultural/historical factors unique to your present condition.

Wanting to have answers is part of that set of mental attributes that make up intelligence. That is one of the driving forces of curiosity and investigation.

That some people are satisfied with simplistic or shallow explanations in no way denies that fact.

You seem to like to ignore the complexities and nuances of these subjects and instead look for gotchas by cherry picking what others say.
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15-02-2017, 09:49 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 09:35 AM)Rik Wrote:  You seem to like to ignore the complexities and nuances of these subjects and instead look for gotchas by cherry picking what others say.

Right in one.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-02-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 09:35 AM)Rik Wrote:  You seem to like to ignore the complexities and nuances of these subjects and instead look for gotchas by cherry picking what others say.

That's interesting observations, you're right about the gotcha part of it. That you see some of my questions, as gotcha questions. Except that the purpose of them is not to impugn their integrity, but to to net the contradiction. It's very effective means of exposing a contradiction in a person's thinking, but the problem you run into, is that once the question is formed and asked, the individual it's asked of begins to shutdown, and goes into this palliative refusal state. They become somewhat aware of being corned, and get's defensive, and will continue to avoid the uncomfortable question at all cost, and with considerable energy. It's an interesting mental phenomena to observe first hand.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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15-02-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(14-02-2017 08:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  It doesn't matter what I or others say. I may lie to you. They may lie to you.
I can tell you that God appeared to me and gave me revelations you still will not know if my claim is true.
There are claims in the Bible that God appeared to some and talked to them. They wrote books. It doesn't matter. You still don't know if those claims are true.
The problem is that I can lie to me and you can lie to you, too. In fact you and I can misconstrue things even without actual lying to ourselves. This is a well-understood and heavily studied fact. It's called things like "confirmation bias" and "agency inference". The human mind is prone to it -- yours no less than mine or anyone else's. Therefore, we need to control for it somehow.

How to do that?

Do we simply accept as truth some holy book, or the assertion of one's bishop, or the testimony of other's personal subjective experiences? No?

Then do we simply accept as truth our OWN personal subjective experiences? Or do we submit them to some methodology with a proven track record of correcting for well-known imperfections in human reasoning? Such as, say, the scientific method? And when the outcome of the process of following that explanatory framework conflicts with what we perceive / think / wish to be true, do we trust logic and science or do we trust personal subjective experiences?

That is the fundamental question.

All you are doing by saying "it doesn't matter that people have conflicting beliefs and conflicting answers to prayer, it only matters what you or I determine to be true", is what we call "kicking the can down the road". If random people pray to what they imagine is the same god and get different answers, this is relevant precisely BECAUSE that is all you are doing -- praying to god and getting YOUR answer. We can reasonably expect that if god is really talking to people in a meaningful and clear way, people will hear substantially the same thing from god. But they don't. And hiding behind "you haven't asked god yourself" is just that -- hiding.

In more real-world situations, people lie but we can detect the lies pretty well by noting discrepancies in what one person claims is true, vs what another claims. So despite your strenuous efforts to deflect from the problem that people claim all sorts of random things to be revelation coming from god, it IS a huge, huge problem.
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15-02-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
For once, I think Tomasia actually did reply to what I said, even though he couched it (as usual) in "you can't understand because you're atheists" bullshit terms.

His reply is, as I translate it, that people don't do religion for rational reasons but for emotional ones, and thus we rationalists are missing the mark when we try to empathize with the reasoning of ancient civilizations for their religious traditions.

Except he missed that I was offering both a biological (pattern-seeking brain, social species storytelling/teaching) and an emotional basis for crafting these tales... it makes people uncomfortable to not know things, or to feel powerless in the face of forces beyond their control. It's better to have some explanation than none, in terms of keeping most people from feeling uncomfortable about their uncertainty and powerlessness. It's a crafted, false certainty... an emotional band-aid, applied on a massive social scale.

We don't just do it for gods, either... we make up bullshit about almost every subject imaginable, ad-hoc rationalizations of things beyond our power or knowledge. The show Mythbusters dealt with two or three of these bullshit rationalizations/explanations every episode. Sometimes they even turned out to be true... but usually not.

[Image: AAEAAQAAAAAAAANkAAAAJGE2ZTZiZDUxLWM4YTct...ODExZQ.jpg]

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-02-2017, 12:14 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(15-02-2017 12:06 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  For once, I think Tomasia actually did reply to what I said, even though he couched it (as usual) in "you can't understand because you're atheists" bullshit terms.

His reply is, as I translate it, that people don't do religion for rational reasons but for emotional ones, and thus we rationalists are missing the mark when we try to empathize with the reasoning of ancient civilizations for their religious traditions.

Except he missed that I was offering both a biological (pattern-seeking brain, social species storytelling/teaching) and an emotional basis for crafting these tales... it makes people uncomfortable to not know things, or to feel powerless in the face of forces beyond their control. It's better to have some explanation than none, in terms of keeping most people from feeling uncomfortable about their uncertainty and powerlessness. It's a crafted, false certainty... an emotional band-aid, applied on a massive social scale.

We don't just do it for gods, either... we make up bullshit about almost every subject imaginable, ad-hoc rationalizations of things beyond our power or knowledge. The show Mythbusters dealt with two or three of these bullshit rationalizations/explanations every episode. Sometimes they even turned out to be true... but usually not.

[Image: AAEAAQAAAAAAAANkAAAAJGE2ZTZiZDUxLWM4YTct...ODExZQ.jpg]

There also seems to be a real component of ego involved too. We see this constantly on this forum where an individual thinks that THEIR interpretation is the right one and that they are the only ones smart enough to figure it out. They then use biblical text to confer a false authority to what they believe and to get others to believe them and many of them come onto this forum with their hair on fire to tell us all about their great insight. Some times this can be converted into sex, money and power.

[Image: thumbRNS-OSTEEN-SUCCESS020416-510x640.jpg]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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