Theistic Evolution Questions
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17-02-2017, 03:54 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Stevil Wrote:My view of you and your situation is that the answers are coming from you
And that's ok. I am not trying to argue with you.
But it is not so much about where the thoughts are coming from. it is more about that they are true.

Stevil Wrote:I have similar experiences to you, but I don't pray to gods and don't ascribe my answers as having come from god.
I believe you.
But I also believe that claim that God teaches, guides, inspires those who don't know that they have to ask Him is true claim.

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17-02-2017, 04:03 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 03:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:My view of you and your situation is that the answers are coming from you
And that's ok. I am not trying to argue with you.
But it is not so much about where the thoughts are coming from. it is more about that they are true.
I think you are capable of coming up with true thoughts for yourself. I guess in that way it doesn't matter if it came from you or from your direct line with god. The source is irrelevant, what is relevant is that you are capable of coming up with true thoughts Angel


(17-02-2017 03:54 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:I have similar experiences to you, but I don't pray to gods and don't ascribe my answers as having come from god.
I believe you.
But I also believe that claim that God teaches, guides, inspires those who don't know that they have to ask Him is true claim.
But that makes the idea of praying or asking god an irrelevant gesture.
If you are going to get the answers anyway, then why bother to ask the questions?
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17-02-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Robvalue Wrote:Sure, maybe they did. I'm not sure what we're even discussing any more.

I only want to know why you assumed what you assumed. ( I hope my English is not too weird now)
But let me read the rest of your post.
Robvalue Wrote:In my experience, the more important or unusual an event is, the more chance that documents relating to that event are going to be kept around. This is such an incredibly unusual event, that it seems bizarre that all other records of it have been lost.
Oh,, now I understand your reasoning.
May be it is because only few witnessed the event and were told not to testify about it?
I don't know if you remember but according to the books of NT Jesus Christ would do some miracle and then asked not to tell anybody.
Plus we have more than 2000 years passed.
Robvalue Wrote:Of course, "Matthew" (who was not Matthew, but some unknown author) just cribbed the whole gospel story off of Mark, as did Luke, while adding his own fabrications to it. Matthew is especially bad for this, as shown by this example, and some other corkers by which he makes it so obvious he is trying to write Jesus as "The Messiah". And, of course, there's no evidence that these authors were even alive when any of these events happened, so it's all most likely hearsay.
Yes, you can say this. Nobody can refute your statements.

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17-02-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 10:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  I receive answers in a form of thoughts. When I have an answer as a thought in my head I say to myself: I feel good about this answer, but I am not convinced yet that it is an answer from God. I am not convinced it is the truth(fact). It could be my wishful thinking/ my idea.

So, God know it better. He solved the problem very easily how to convince me and all His children. He provides one or two more witnesses.
After I receive my answer in a form of thought sometime later I get the same information from some kind of source(book, person). So, I have THE SAME answer to my question from SECOND WITNESS. I am convinced a little bit more now but still may be not too convinced. Sometime later I get the same answer from the THIRD source(WITNESS).
Now I am very, very convinced.
You are simply describing confirmation bias (if the answer is not supported by some kind of evidential connection to reality) or anyone's normal decision-making process (if it is grounded in actual evidence). In other words if I am not sure how best to proceed, I will think about it, and then because my attention is devoted to the topic, will likely be more attuned to noticing the matter discussed by others in books or on the Internet or in person, which hopefully adds to my corpus of knowledge and perspective, which further refines my decision.

I do not see how one can have more confidence in a decision just because it is believed to come from an invisible friend. The only real basis for judging the "goodness" of a decision is whether it's supported by data or logical argument, has if possible some track record in history, and does not violate anyone's rights -- things like that. Is an invisible being needed for this process? I don't see how. I could see how it could in theory be helpful assuming this being was benevolent and caring and trustworthy, I guess, but it seems to me that such a being would tend to tell me to figure it out myself, with the brain he gave me.
(17-02-2017 10:04 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...
For example: Temple of God (LDS Temple) is the house of learning. There are lots of symbols that are not understood by me. But I was very interested in understanding of one particular symbol.
I asked God many, many, many times. No thoughts, no idea. I asked some people from my ward for a long time. Nobody had an answer. But I believed that if I am persistent I will find out.
One day Relief Society president of our ward said that we will have our next RS activity in the Temple and Temple president has some special session for us. I couldn't go and I told my friend that I will not go (she supposed to take me with her). But as soon as I told her that I won't go I had this strong feeling that I have to go. I told her: "You know what, come to pick me up, I am going".
So, when session started and Temple president came He said that he had no idea about this session and that he is not sure what we are going to talk about. But of course there are plenty of things to talk about. So, he started to talk about some ordinances and suddenly I hear this: 'Sisters, do you know why you do (I can't tell you what)? Do you know what it means(symbolize)?
That was MY exact question?!! And I received an answer. I know what it symbolizes. I am glad I followed that strong impression.
The most economical explanation is far simpler:

1) The church has certain rituals
2) It teaches about those rituals on a regular basis
3) If you're interested in a particular ritual and pay close attention at church and to church writings and such, before long, someone will convey the information you are interested in and you will not fail to notice it.

This is why there is a principle in reasoning that you don't want to "multiply unnecessary entities". God is not necessary to explain what happened. Also, the best explanations are economical and concise. Tell me in what way the above 3 points are not sufficient to explain what happened to you? They might not be sufficient to explain to your satisfaction how you subjectively felt about it or what you wanted to think / feel about it. But they do objectively and sufficiently explain how it would happen in the simplest possible way. Adding god to the mix doesn't increase the odds of this happening and doesn't further or better explain it.

This is no different than what I would have told you thirty years ago when I was a Christian. I, and those around me, constantly talked about god "impressing" something on us, and then "confirming" it. But if you read up on confirmation bias, you'll find this is one of the most pervasive and common cognitive hiccups in the human brain. We are literally inclined to read too much into simple coincidence and become utterly convinced that a conclusion was externally, rather than internally, directed.

It is impossible for you, me or anyone to prove that a thought that enters our heads did not arise from within ourselves, but instead that it was placed there by an outside force. However we do know that no such outside force has ever been measured or verified, nor do we have a theoretical basis for how it would even happen. Therefore, whenever a thought enters your head, there is no reason to think it is not your own thought. It is just that you can't pay attention to all the thoughts in between your ears all the time. As soon as you direct your attention, the thought seemingly pops into your field of awareness, but was there the whole time, courtesy of your subconscious operating system.
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17-02-2017, 04:21 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Stevil Wrote:I think you are capable of coming up with true thoughts for yourself.
Yes. But not when they are about God and eternal things. I can not know anything about God until He reveals it.
Stevil Wrote:But that makes the idea of praying or asking god an irrelevant gesture.
If you are going to get the answers anyway, then why bother to ask the questions?
Because asking God questions is very important. The more I ask and receive answers and convinced they are true the stronger my faith in God is. Faith in God is very, very important principle.
But when someone doesn't know that he/she can ask God and receive answers God will still help. They are His children. You are His son.

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17-02-2017, 05:17 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 04:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:I think you are capable of coming up with true thoughts for yourself.
Yes. But not when they are about God and eternal things. I can not know anything about God until He reveals it.
Stevil Wrote:But that makes the idea of praying or asking god an irrelevant gesture.
If you are going to get the answers anyway, then why bother to ask the questions?
Because asking God questions is very important. The more I ask and receive answers and convinced they are true the stronger my faith in God is. Faith in God is very, very important principle.
But when someone doesn't know that he/she can ask God and receive answers God will still help. They are His children. You are His son.

You just described confirmation bias, now haven't we been through this idea of you knowing anything is from a source you can trust?

Where was Brigham Young's source for the Adam-God concept?

I also remember, as do many others here, where you said you wouldn't post here again, yet here you are, demonstrating you are a liar once again.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-02-2017, 05:19 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 02:22 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, "to wake up in the grave" means to be resurrected. But why can't this be serious? I am just asking.

If 500 dead people woke up, and walked around Jerusalem, SOMEONE would have talked about, (as in an historian or public official). It's obviously pure bullshit.
You can't be THAT stupid.

If the temple curtain had torn in two, spontaneously, some JEW would have talked about that MONUMENTAL event in Jewish history. There were Jews who recorded
all kinds of other very mundane events, yet NEVER once mentioned that.

Grow up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-02-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 04:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:I think you are capable of coming up with true thoughts for yourself.
Yes. But not when they are about God and eternal things. I can not know anything about God until He reveals it.
Because you can't actually verify these things, because only god knows these things then all you have is your thoughts on this. (you believe your thoughts come from god, maybe hey do, maybe they don't). If you get a thought about an attribute of god, you have no way to authenticate if it is true, your only approach is to choose to believe it to be true. Just because you believe it to be true that isn't proof that it is true and that it comes from god. That is a circular argument.

(17-02-2017 04:21 PM)Alla Wrote:  
Stevil Wrote:But that makes the idea of praying or asking god an irrelevant gesture.
If you are going to get the answers anyway, then why bother to ask the questions?
Because asking God questions is very important. The more I ask and receive answers and convinced they are true the stronger my faith in God is. Faith in God is very, very important principle.
But when someone doesn't know that he/she can ask God and receive answers God will still help. They are His children. You are His son.
But still that brings us to the place where regardless of whether you ask, you still get the answers. This makes it irrelevant to ask.
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17-02-2017, 06:06 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 03:04 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Sure, maybe they did. I'm not sure what we're even discussing any more. Hypotheticals can be contructed for anything. I don't ever mean to make statements of certainty, I simply use shorthand.

In my experience, the more important or unusual an event is, the more chance that documents relating to that event are going to be kept around. This is such an incredibly unusual event, that it seems bizarre that all other records of it have been lost.

Of course, "Matthew" (who was not Matthew, but some unknown author) just cribbed the whole gospel story off of Mark, as did Luke, while adding his own fabrications to it. Matthew is especially bad for this, as shown by this example, and some other corkers by which he makes it so obvious he is trying to write Jesus as "The Messiah". And, of course, there's no evidence that these authors were even alive when any of these events happened, so it's all most likely hearsay.

This is one of those "while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" situations where the general rule can be ignored because the issue we're discussing is so preposterous that someone should have noticed-- like, the Roman Auxiliary units (they didn't have Legions there yet, at least for another decade after Jesus' alleged death, partly because Pilate's civil service rank was not entitled to command Legions but only Aux troops-- it's why the "Procurator" versus "Prefect" error matters, when you're trying to claim that Mark, Matthew, etc., were written by eyewitnesses) or the half-dozen historians living in the region at the time.

It should have been a Major News Event™, having an earthquake, darkness, and zombie infestation of Jerusalem. The Romans were known to write about damned near anything, down to small details, because their empire's operations were largely run by engineers and bean-counters-- Rome wanted to know what was happening in its provinces, especially on issues like "how much money are we making?" and "is it going to be a problem to hold this new territory?".

With that in mind, how can you think no one reported, "Oh man the Jews here are FREAKING OUT because the Temple Veil just split in half, the world went dark in mid-day, an earthquake happened, and a bunch of dead people got up out of their graves!" to the central authorities?

It genuinely baffles me that anyone who has studied the Bible can claim with a straight face that the authors of the Gospels were eyewitnesses, rather than people making up Messiah stories after-the-fact, and working their mythbuilding from a post-Revolution (and semi-genocide of the Jews/Zealots) perspective many decades after the events they're claiming to be recording.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-02-2017, 12:09 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
It's even more surprising to me when someone admits they are not eye witnesses, but just believes what they say anyway.

But we know this is almost always a matter of being programmed, rather than a failure of critical thinking.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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