Theistic Evolution Questions
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18-02-2017, 02:50 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(18-02-2017 12:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It's even more surprising to me when someone admits they are not eye witnesses, but just believes what they say anyway.

But we know this is almost always a matter of being programmed, rather than a failure of critical thinking.

It's first hand accounts by eyewitnesses written many years after the fact, because scribes were in such short supply at the time of the events Rolleyes And you may judge their veracity by the unreliable traditions recorded in the Bible, that all the disciples came to a sticky end for defending their beliefs. After all if they weren't true, why would the disciples (who very definitely existed and weren't made up either) die (they definitely died in horrible ways, it says so in the Bible) to defend them?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-02-2017, 04:54 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(18-02-2017 02:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-02-2017 12:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  It's even more surprising to me when someone admits they are not eye witnesses, but just believes what they say anyway.

But we know this is almost always a matter of being programmed, rather than a failure of critical thinking.

It's first hand accounts by eyewitnesses written many years after the fact, because scribes were in such short supply at the time of the events Rolleyes And you may judge their veracity by the unreliable traditions recorded in the Bible, that all the disciples came to a sticky end for defending their beliefs. After all if they weren't true, why would the disciples (who very definitely existed and weren't made up either) die (they definitely died in horrible ways, it says so in the Bible) to defend them?

And because we just can't think of any other reason cultists would die for made-up, untrue beliefs in such a short period of time "after the fact"? Rolleyes

...you know, like we saw in San Diego?
[Image: 1452389319784652973.jpg]

...and Jonestown...
[Image: 31289jonestown_.jpeg]

...and Kanugu, Uganda?
[Image: AAA.JPG]

(The last group has my favorite religious cult name of all time, though, "The Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God". Wish I was making up one word of that title.)

Undecided

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-02-2017, 08:37 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 06:06 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(17-02-2017 03:04 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Sure, maybe they did. I'm not sure what we're even discussing any more. Hypotheticals can be contructed for anything. I don't ever mean to make statements of certainty, I simply use shorthand.

In my experience, the more important or unusual an event is, the more chance that documents relating to that event are going to be kept around. This is such an incredibly unusual event, that it seems bizarre that all other records of it have been lost.

Of course, "Matthew" (who was not Matthew, but some unknown author) just cribbed the whole gospel story off of Mark, as did Luke, while adding his own fabrications to it. Matthew is especially bad for this, as shown by this example, and some other corkers by which he makes it so obvious he is trying to write Jesus as "The Messiah". And, of course, there's no evidence that these authors were even alive when any of these events happened, so it's all most likely hearsay.

This is one of those "while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" situations where the general rule can be ignored because the issue we're discussing is so preposterous that someone should have noticed-- like, the Roman Auxiliary units (they didn't have Legions there yet, at least for another decade after Jesus' alleged death, partly because Pilate's civil service rank was not entitled to command Legions but only Aux troops-- it's why the "Procurator" versus "Prefect" error matters, when you're trying to claim that Mark, Matthew, etc., were written by eyewitnesses) or the half-dozen historians living in the region at the time.

It should have been a Major News Event™, having an earthquake, darkness, and zombie infestation of Jerusalem. The Romans were known to write about damned near anything, down to small details, because their empire's operations were largely run by engineers and bean-counters-- Rome wanted to know what was happening in its provinces, especially on issues like "how much money are we making?" and "is it going to be a problem to hold this new territory?".

With that in mind, how can you think no one reported, "Oh man the Jews here are FREAKING OUT because the Temple Veil just split in half, the world went dark in mid-day, an earthquake happened, and a bunch of dead people got up out of their graves!" to the central authorities?

It genuinely baffles me that anyone who has studied the Bible can claim with a straight face that the authors of the Gospels were eyewitnesses, rather than people making up Messiah stories after-the-fact, and working their mythbuilding from a post-Revolution (and semi-genocide of the Jews/Zealots) perspective many decades after the events they're claiming to be recording.

I found it interesting to see who was actually in a position to be making writings at that time during Jesus' life. Turns out that Shammai was over the Sanhedrin from 20CE to 30CE, then Gamaliel took over the Sanhedrin in 30CE, right at the period of where Jesus (rabbi) would have been alive and allegedly put on trial by the Sanhedrin.

There are only additions of pious fraud by later authors after 300 CE. Neither Shammai or Gamaliel mention anything of this Jesus in the Talmud even though they were arguing over minutae such as forgetting to say grace after meals or what night one should light Hannukkah candles, yet not a word on the Sanhedrin setting up one of their own rabbis for execution by the Roman authorities. Consider

Though I suppose it would be like historians 2000 years from now scratching their heads at why Captain Planet was never mentioned as a participant at the Earth Summit in 1992.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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18-02-2017, 09:33 AM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
(17-02-2017 06:06 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  There are only additions of pious fraud by later authors after 300 CE. Neither Shammai or Gamaliel mention anything of this Jesus in the Talmud even though they were arguing over minutae such as forgetting to say grace after meals or what night one should light Hannukkah candles, yet not a word on the Sanhedrin setting up one of their own rabbis for execution by the Roman authorities. Consider

They also never once mention that the Sanhedrin was called into session for the first time in history on the Preparation Day for Passover (weekend). Consider
Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-02-2017, 12:10 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
TheInquisition Wrote:You just described confirmation bias, now haven't we been through this idea of you knowing anything is from a source you can trust?
Yes, we have been.
TheInquisition Wrote:Where was Brigham Young's source for the Adam-God concept?
I don't know. I have never asked God. I don't even know if I understand correctly Adam-God concept. Brigham Young never explained it.
BTW, do you know what scripture is according to Brigham Young?
TheInquisition Wrote:I also remember, as do many others here, where you said you wouldn't post here again, yet here you are, demonstrating you are a liar once again.

define "a liar", please.

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19-02-2017, 12:34 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Stevil Wrote:Because you can't actually verify these things, because only god knows these things then all you have is your thoughts on this. (you believe your thoughts come from god, maybe hey do, maybe they don't).
That is what I always say: "'I believe" or "I am convinced". This is what faith is : "strong conviction"
So far my faith brings only good fruits. So far I have no reason to abandon my faith.
When I didn't ask God I made my own choices. Sometimes those choice were right, sometimes they were wrong. Since I started to ask God every choice I was asking Him about was the right choice. This is why my faith in God is growing/progressing. It is all about progression.

God invites us to experiment on His words. He doesn't say that we shall receive or that the door will be opened. He says "ask and then you shall receive". Knock and then the door will be opened. So, if I do not ask first, or if I do not knock first I will never know if these words of God are true.

As I also said I asked God something I didn't know about Him or about certain eternal principle. I received an answer in a form of a thought. I asked myself. Is this thought true? I don't know. I continue to ask. I want to be sure it is NOT my thought. I insists if no answer for a long time. I don't give up. Never. Sometime later I am learning in Church that God teaches this exact thing about Himself. Or God teaches this exact principle. I say to myself: oh, I already knew this. It was my EXACT thought after I asked(prayed)
So, one question - the same answer to me and to LDS Prophets or ancient prophets of God.
Coincidence? May be. But I am not convinced it is. My faith is growing and faith is the most important principle of the Gospel of Christ. It is crucial and there is a reason for it.
Stevil Wrote:But still that brings us to the place where regardless of whether you ask, you still get the answers. This makes it irrelevant to ask.
Yes, but when you receive answers your faith in God is still zero. But faith in God is super duper important. Also you have much less knowledge about God than I do.
I am CONVINCED the more knowledge about God we have the better for us.

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19-02-2017, 12:36 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
double post, sorry Smile

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19-02-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
If you want to be sure you've received a thought from God that isn't your own, you could ask him what 4 digit number I'm thinking of.

I asked theists this before on the other forum, and not one even ventured an answer, let alone the right one. All I got were excuses.

If his well of knowledge dries up at something testable you couldn't possibly know for yourself, you have your answer.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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19-02-2017, 12:49 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Bucky Ball Wrote:If 500 dead people woke up, and walked around Jerusalem, SOMEONE would have talked about, (as in an historian or public official). It's obviously pure bullshit.
You can't be THAT stupid.
May be no historian or public official ever witnessed it. If Gospel of Christ is true then I would expect God would made sure non-believers would never witness this.

Bucky Ball Wrote:If the temple curtain had torn in two, spontaneously, some JEW would have talked about that MONUMENTAL event in Jewish history. There were Jews who recorded
all kinds of other very mundane events, yet NEVER once mentioned that.
May be they did and we don't have it. There are many records that are lost. According to God He makes sure some records are hidden. There are reasons for that.
You may be right but you didn't convince me.

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19-02-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Theistic Evolution Questions
Robvalue Wrote:If you want to be sure you've received a thought from God that isn't your own, you could ask him what 4 digit number I'm thinking of.
I asked theists this before on the other forum, and not one even ventured an answer, let alone the right one. All I got were excuses.
I am more than happy to respond to your invitation.

I can predict God's answer without even asking Him. God most likely will tell me: "Rob's THOUGHTS are NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. When you BECOME LIKE ME then you will know other people's thoughts."
I hope I gave you satisfying answer.

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