Theists, I want your best reasoning
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04-12-2014, 12:16 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:49 AM)cjlr Wrote:  To presuppose a universal teleology - which believers will then tell you they don't actually know in any case - is pathological cosmic narcissism.

I like that quote.

I could make an argument that the universe was created by a god and has great meaning...but it was created for a race of other beings. That our species came about by random chance is just a quirk in the way the universe works, we weren't even supposed to be here or we were placed here to entertain those other beings at some future date.

No one can say that this line of thinking is in any way less credible than this was ALL made for us. Narcissism indeed.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2014, 12:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 01:20 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 11:32 AM)cjlr Wrote:  If it is something intrinsic to the nature of the universe itself, then that is amenable to scientific investigation by definition. If it is not, then it is subjective and irrelevant.

The meaning of a book, a story is intrinsic to it’s nature. Does this make uncovering the meaning amenable to scientific investigation by definition? And if so, what sort of scientist would be best equipped to explore these sort of questions?

There are plenty of new testament scholars, and many others who argue over the interpretation of scripture of various passages, the meaning of certain parables, stories, letters, such as the meaning of the works of the law in the Epistles. Would you say these sort of pursuits are scientific investigations by definition?

Are do you think the meaning is unknowable. That there is no such thing as a right or wrong interpretation, that it’s purely subjective, and therefore not amenable to scientific investigation?

Quote: And remember, all the other contradictory answers given by others over the millennia have precisely the same amount of substantiation behind them as you do. There can be no single correct answer under such circumstances.

If there was some uniformity on the answer, would this indicate that there likely is an underlying meaning to human life, since you appealed to contradiction to negate this very thing? Does a book lack intrinsic meaning, because readers differ in some respects to what that meaning is? The more complex a work is, like a great novel, though possessing intrinsic meaning, yields multiple interpretations of the work. Would you say these multiple interpretations were not the product of scientific investigation since one interpretation could not be decided upon?
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04-12-2014, 01:04 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
....,....
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04-12-2014, 01:19 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Going back to the opening question on this thread of why I believe, I'm reminded of a Bertrand Russell quote:

Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm. At any rate, they hold this about the communist faith. What I wish to maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define “faith” as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of “faith.” We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups substitute different emotions. Christians have faith in the Resurrection; communists have faith in Marx’s Theory of Value. Neither faith can be defended rationally, and each therefore is defended by propaganda and, if necessary, by war.

I would heartily agree with Russell were it not for the fact that I would define "faith" as a firm belief in either something for which there is no evidence or some evidence or overwhelming evidence! But I have faith in a person, not an idea. Yes, Russell is correct, it would be difficult to form an ironclad proof for Marx's Theory of Value. It is less difficult to prove for oneself that Jesus is a person desiring a relationship with individuals. That relationship is one very strong reason why I trust Him and believe.

Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:58 AM)microterf Wrote:  I'm not even looking to debate them here. I honestly want to just know what their reasoning is. Most people that go to church have never given any thought to it, or had actual conversations about their faith, tjey blindly follow their pastor, so I understand that.

I'm convinced most apologetics don't actually believe, but they like debating. (Kind of like a lawyer) and they make money, so I understand that.

I absolutely do not understand how these idiots justify believing when they've see all the evidence contrary to it.

There are two main reasons that I am Catholic. The first of these is that my parents are Catholic. As such I was raised with Catholic values. I fully understand the idea that if I was born elsewhere I probably would be something else. However, until I was about 19 I was not hugely Catholic. I was more Catholic than average but now I am a super traditionalist who is trying to live his life based around my faith.
That brings me to my second reason. That being that I find reality as presented by the church to be in conformity to the way reality is. Or the church's reason conforms to reality. Basically I am a Catholic because catholicism is true.
My primary, in the sense of being first, is the argument from contingency. Building upon that, my argument for a personal God would be the existence of miracles, which I believe there to be enough evidence to assert that they do occur.
One reason that I am Catholic is that it often happens that I come up with my own philosophical ideas and I find that these line up with what the church teaches.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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04-12-2014, 01:34 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 01:21 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  One reason that I am Catholic is that it often happens that I come up with my own philosophical ideas and I find that these line up with what the church teaches.

Like covering up criminal behavior?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 01:36 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 01:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:21 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  One reason that I am Catholic is that it often happens that I come up with my own philosophical ideas and I find that these line up with what the church teaches.

Like covering up criminal behavior?

Well my favorite political theorist is Machiavelli. Smile

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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04-12-2014, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2014 04:29 PM by Clockwork.)
Re: RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(03-12-2014 09:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I have reasons why I ask each of these questions and I think we could gather some rudimentary information from said theist.

I think I can handle these.
1. Why is the sky blue?
Gawd is a Carolina fan. (UNC; this only works in NC.)

2. What is a rainbow?
Gay people. See, God is mad because there are still gays, and he's reminding us he tried flooding them.

3. What causes earthquakes?
Jesus stomping his feet. No surprise these happen mostly in Californica, where Hollywood heathens and homos live.

4. If you traveled East along the equator from Quito, Ecuador for 24,901 miles (40,075 km) where would you end up?
Where ever it is, it's where God wanted me to be.

5. When you watch a magician make a rabbit disappear, do you think it is a sleight of hand or that the rabbit truly disappeared?
It disappeared, because there were no rabbits when Jesus was born. They're evil. Also, they fornicate like mad.

6. Have you played the game Chinese whispers?
No. The Chinese are godless Buddhists and Communists, so they hate God. I ain't having nothing to do with them people. Except their egg rolls.

7. Describe an optical illusion.
It's when I see Jesus in my toast, but atheists can't admit it so they say I'm just seeing things.

8. If Dick or Jane jumped off the roof would you jump too?
Jane probably made Dick jump. Women are manipulative and scheming. They've been doing it since Eve fooled Adam. If I were made, I'd pray first.

9. Do you follow your doctor’s advice?
Depends. He ain't one of them Muslim or Hindu doctors, is he?

10. Have you ever tortured a small animal?
Do animal sacrifices count?

Ha! You can't handle these dissenting opinions and proofs, now can ya?

Laugh out load Laughat
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04-12-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 01:36 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Like covering up criminal behavior?

Well my favorite political theorist is Machiavelli. Smile

I'm sure he was a good Catholic.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 01:21 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 02:58 AM)microterf Wrote:  I'm not even looking to debate them here. I honestly want to just know what their reasoning is. Most people that go to church have never given any thought to it, or had actual conversations about their faith, tjey blindly follow their pastor, so I understand that.

I'm convinced most apologetics don't actually believe, but they like debating. (Kind of like a lawyer) and they make money, so I understand that.

I absolutely do not understand how these idiots justify believing when they've see all the evidence contrary to it.

There are two main reasons that I am Catholic. The first of these is that my parents are Catholic. As such I was raised with Catholic values. I fully understand the idea that if I was born elsewhere I probably would be something else. However, until I was about 19 I was not hugely Catholic. I was more Catholic than average but now I am a super traditionalist who is trying to live his life based around my faith.
That brings me to my second reason. That being that I find reality as presented by the church to be in conformity to the way reality is. Or the church's reason conforms to reality. Basically I am a Catholic because catholicism is true.
My primary, in the sense of being first, is the argument from contingency. Building upon that, my argument for a personal God would be the existence of miracles, which I believe there to be enough evidence to assert that they do occur.
One reason that I am Catholic is that it often happens that I come up with my own philosophical ideas and I find that these line up with what the church teaches.

"Building upon that, my argument for a personal God would be the existence of miracles, which I believe there to be enough evidence to assert that they do occur." Consider

Intriguing...could you provide me with one? I am truly curious to see evidence of miracles....if the humvee I am riding in explodes, and I am the only survivor, is that a miracle? or simply chance and circumstance...If the entire town is leveled by a tornado, and one survivor crawls out of the wreckage, is that a miracle, or chance and circumstance?

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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