Theists, I want your best reasoning
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04-12-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 01:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:57 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Going back to the opening question on this thread of why I believe, I'm reminded of a Bertrand Russell quote:

Christians hold that their faith does good, but other faiths do harm. At any rate, they hold this about the communist faith. What I wish to maintain is that all faiths do harm. We may define “faith” as a firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of “faith.” We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups substitute different emotions. Christians have faith in the Resurrection; communists have faith in Marx’s Theory of Value. Neither faith can be defended rationally, and each therefore is defended by propaganda and, if necessary, by war.

I would heartily agree with Russell were it not for the fact that I would define "faith" as a firm belief in either something for which there is no evidence or some evidence or overwhelming evidence! But I have faith in a person, not an idea. Yes, Russell is correct, it would be difficult to form an ironclad proof for Marx's Theory of Value. It is less difficult to prove for oneself that Jesus is a person desiring a relationship with individuals. That relationship is one very strong reason why I trust Him and believe.

Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook? Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances? Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power? A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-12-2014, 02:58 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

The continued irrational content of your posts is the basis.

Quote:2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

Present your evidence.

Quote:3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook?

Let me off what hook?

Quote:Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances?

Are you offering solutions based on fantasy and delusion to imagined problems?

Quote:Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power?

What are you on about? Surrender what?

Quote:A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

I've been sober for nearly 25 years. Fuck your higher power.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 05-12-2014 01:21 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook? Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances? Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power? A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

1. That is easy to validate:

Faith - the belief in something without evidence.

Delusion: an idiosyncratic belief or impression that is firmly maintained despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality or rational argument, typically a symptom of mental disorder. A belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary.

Religion - The embracement of delusion.

You are at a distinct disadvantage, you believe in a fairy tale, a fairy tale based on a discredited, easily dismantled and disproven fictional book, filled with allegorical writings by communities of followers who penned them under more known author's names, pseudepigrapha by definition. Now if you wanted to discuss the philosophical theories of god then that would be a different, albeit subjective discussion, but if you cling to the bible as argument from authority, then you are beyond help. the world isn't flat, there isn't enough water on or in the planet to flood the world as per the mythical global flood that never happened, and jesus christ super star the miracle performing zombie didnt exist either as all writings of him were penned after his death by people who never witnessed the alleged events.


2. "More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person"

I would LOVE for you to present evidence that jesus the christ EVER existed..perhaps you have some archaeological evidence? contemporary evidence? some writings? scrap of clothing perhaps, record of birth, death.....anything?

"b) that he desires a relationship"

Again, I would LOVE for you to prove that....but why jesus? Why not Romulus (800 years before JC) which is where the whole story was most likely stolen from...but lets pretend he existed, this man JC who claimed to be the messiah..oh wait, he never said that...well lets pretend he thought he was....evidently then as per the jewish prophesy, he was then a false prophet...so why does he matter again?...

The Bible claims that Jesus made the following comment:

Matthew 16:28

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Jesus also advised against going to court over someone who steals something and also told people not to store up stocks or reserves for the future. Clearly, he thought the end was very near.

Likewise, Paul advised followers not to marry and that the end time was near. In this scripture he obviously believes that some of the people he is talking to will still be alive at the second coming.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-18

“For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

The obvious fact is that the second coming was not forthcoming at that time, or even close to being near. The 2000-year delay is a strong piece of evidence that Christianity is a failed religion.

The following quote from Stephen L. Harris, Professor Emeritus of Humanities and Religious Studies at California State University- Sacramento, completes this point with a devastating argument. Remember that Jesus was a Jew who had no intention to deviate from the Hebrew scriptures:

“Jesus did not accomplish what Israel’s prophets said the Messiah was commissioned to do: He did not deliver the covenant people from their Gentile enemies, reassemble those scattered in the Diaspora, restore the Davidic kingdom, or establish universal peace (cf.Isa. 9:6–7; 11:7–12:16, etc.). Instead of freeing Jews from oppressors and thereby fulfilling God’s ancient promises—for land, nationhood, kingship, and blessing—Jesus died a “shameful” death, defeated by the very political powers the Messiah was prophesied to overcome. Indeed, the Hebrew prophets did not foresee that Israel’s savior would be executed as a common criminal by Gentiles, making Jesus’ crucifixion a “stumbling block” to scripturally literate Jews. (1 Cor.1:23)”

Jesus’ immediate followers, mostly his 12 disciples, probably did not immediately identify this failure, because after Jesus’ body was likely stolen and concealed, a rumor spread that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead. A sense of optimism overcame their grief about his execution and renewed some hope that he was a true messiah. If they had known then that there was to be no return in the near or long-term future, they likely would have abandoned any further activity. Despite this resurgence in their faith, they never agreed with Paul’s concept of Jesus as being divine. Anything written in the Bible to suggest that they did is probably a result of later editing by some of Paul’s followers. Such a belief would have been an exceptional departure from the Jewish faith.


"c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three"

Yes ol wonderful leader of knowledge, bless us with your evidence....although I am not a trained neurologist or psychologist so I may not be able to help you with your voices or personal experience if that is where you are going, but I am willing to try...

"will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life?"

Absolutely, prove jesus existed, jesus was the son of god, jesus was the messiah, and the incarnation and atonement theory is valid and I will tattoo JESUS IS LORD on my chest and put a fish on my car.

"Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum?"

lol....you have read the bible right? You do realize it is a compilation of the three Fs: Fiction, Forgery and Fantasy...if you remove the pseudepigrapha, interpolations, parables and allegorical writings you wouldn't have enough left over to put a pamphlet together. How can ANY intelligent person who has read the bible believe in it, while you are at it, lets believe in goldilocks and the three bears

GOLDILOCKS 3:14, Thou shalt not sleep in other people's beds

Or perhaps we can discuss at length the prophet spongebob..


"Will you trust Jesus for salvation?"

Which one? 1 in 20 were named jesus back then, and we know of at least 4 "self titled prophets" that were named jesus back in the alleged jesus of nazareth's time frame....and why jesus again...since he was a false prophet anyway..I suppose you believe the exodus happened too? lol

Amaze me with your evidence, I stand ready lord Q.

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-12-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:30 AM)microterf Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 04:57 AM)Gaest Wrote:  One of the bigger reasons I comment little in threads like this is honestly because of the usage of the word "theist".

"Theism" in the broadest sense refers to belief in the existence of one or more deities - which is why the opposite is called "Atheism".
However in popular usages it is often seen as referring specifically to the god concept found in Abrahamic religions (which seems to be the case in the OP as well)... And while I fit the former, I do not fit the latter.

Now, that the discourses concerning religion is often centred around Abrahamic religion is not necessarily bad, but it does exclude a few people like me from time to time.
Please don't take it as me complaining, but more as a heads up that if you want people from all religions to comment you have to broaden your discourse and terminology a bit.

microterf, this is not a comment about this thread in particular, but more rooted in what I think is some general trends, if you were solely looking for Christians to debate I'm sorry for disturbing you.

I meant Theist how you described it. If you believe in a god, any god. Zeus, Allah, Etc. I'm curious as to WHY you believe in that god. Just the honest answer is all I'm looking for.

Cool, I'll give it a crack.

I'm a Norse polytheist and as such believe in the existence of multiple gods.

Like most people I have several complimentary reasons for that:

I have an intellectual interest in Old Norse mythology, folklore and religion in the Viking age.
I have friends and a lot of fun tied to the religion.
I get a deep sense of peace and satisfaction when I give offerings to the gods.
I have had what I would call spiritual or at least religious experiences - seldomly outside of rituals.
I genuinely believe that giving offerings will bless me and mine with good fortune and peace in our lives.

Probably pretty short, but it does give a bit to work with for further discussion.
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04-12-2014, 03:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 04:17 PM by Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue.)
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
^Not sure if serious.

(04-12-2014 12:55 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:32 AM)cjlr Wrote:  If it is something intrinsic to the nature of the universe itself, then that is amenable to scientific investigation by definition. If it is not, then it is subjective and irrelevant.

The meaning of a book, a story is intrinsic to it’s nature. Does this make uncovering the meaning amenable to scientific investigation by definition? And if so, what sort of scientist would be best equipped to explore these sort of questions?

An anthropologist working with a qualified historian, sociologist and psycologist. Drinking Beverage

Quote:There are plenty of new testament scholars, and many others who argue over the interpretation of scripture of various passages, the meaning of certain parables, stories, letters, such as the meaning of the works of the law in the Epistles. Would you say these sort of pursuits are scientific investigations by definition?

There's a joke about theologists not being real scientists in here somewhere. It's science if they are drawing conclusions from evidence and admitting to all flaws in their conclusion and if theyinclude all contrary evidence to their conclusion.

Quote:Are do you think the meaning is unknowable. That there is no such thing as a right or wrong interpretation, that it’s purely subjective, and therefore not amenable to scientific investigation?

You cannot remove the book from it's external context. To take the book as evidence of anything outside the book that isn't evidently supported is neither rational nor scientific.

It's yet another failed analogy.

Edit: I mischaracterised the argument but I'm pleased to say that what I wrote still applies. (Mostly.) There is no intrinsic information stored in a book, it's all interpretive.

There are no wrong interpretations in textual analisis either. Only more correct interpretations.

(04-12-2014 11:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 11:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  Therefore the existence of the universe is not evidence of God.

Yea, I guess not.

Chas. You are now the coolest old cantakerous motherfucker on this site.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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04-12-2014, 05:15 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 03:11 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  GOLDILOCKS 3:14, Thou shalt not sleep i other people's beds

I thought Goldilocks had porridge, not pie...

Consider

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04-12-2014, 05:17 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook? Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances? Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power? A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

You're a church leader?

Seriously dude, WTF are you on an atheist forum?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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04-12-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 05:17 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook? Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances? Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power? A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

You're a church leader?

Seriously dude, WTF are you on an atheist forum?

Perhaps...
Looking for converts.
Feathers in his hat.
More followers more tithings.
Bet with friends.
Trying to break from the indoctrination.
All the above.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 03:52 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Chas. You are now the coolest old cantakerous motherfucker on this site.

Gee, you say the sweetest things. Blush Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-12-2014, 05:44 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 07:22 AM)pablo Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 07:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's not just a coincidence that the G is capitalized, and starts with the same letter as G_D.

It's invisible, all present, and transcends both space and time, and is likely conscious. I mean how else would it know to keep us grounded on earth, rather than floating all over the place, and bumping into lamp polls.

I sincerely hope you're joking.

Actually, he/she sort of has a point. We don't have the faintest idea how or why gravity works. We can mathematically describe its effects, but we don't understand it at all. Might as well be God...
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