Theists, I want your best reasoning
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04-12-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 05:44 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 07:22 AM)pablo Wrote:  I sincerely hope you're joking.

Actually, he/she sort of has a point. We don't have the faintest idea how or why gravity works. We can mathematically describe its effects, but we don't understand it at all. Might as well be God...

Wouldn't mathematically describing the effects of gravity be a precise understanding of how it works?
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04-12-2014, 06:47 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 03:35 PM)Gaest Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 10:30 AM)microterf Wrote:  I meant Theist how you described it. If you believe in a god, any god. Zeus, Allah, Etc. I'm curious as to WHY you believe in that god. Just the honest answer is all I'm looking for.

Cool, I'll give it a crack.

I'm a Norse polytheist and as such believe in the existence of multiple gods.

Like most people I have several complimentary reasons for that:

I have an intellectual interest in Old Norse mythology, folklore and religion in the Viking age.
I have friends and a lot of fun tied to the religion.
I get a deep sense of peace and satisfaction when I give offerings to the gods.
I have had what I would call spiritual or at least religious experiences - seldomly outside of rituals.
I genuinely believe that giving offerings will bless me and mine with good fortune and peace in our lives.

Probably pretty short, but it does give a bit to work with for further discussion.

"Not sure if serious." Is pointlessly dismissive and I apologize. This always happens, we get sidetracked on Q's trail of bullshit, turn around and 8+ pages have passed without any progress being made by anybody.

So yeah. What you actually wrote:
That's all about your emotional investment in your beliefs. It's great, enjoy yourself but it only touches on what the OP is about; the reasons for which you believe. An emotional justification isn't reasonable by definition.

You've had religious experiences. You've reached an emotional cresendo/ revelation/ something in the context of a religious ritual but that's explicable, without supernatural origin and experienced by the adherants of other religions. The world described by the religion isn't accurate to how the world evidently is. There is no evidence for the existence of your deities. The spells and rituals described in your holy texts don't do anything.

It has all the same problems as the other religions so; how can you reasonably profess belief?

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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04-12-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life?

Why would anybody worship any deity that was so feeble as to require their fealty?

Quote:Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

And what exactly do I need salvation from?

---
Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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04-12-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 05:15 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 03:11 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  GOLDILOCKS 3:14, Thou shalt not sleep i other people's beds

I thought Goldilocks had porridge, not pie...

Consider

See what happens when you fail to understand the scriptures?!?! Censored

Book of Bear in the great book of Goldilocks must be read with faith!

Papa bear 1:17 clearly says, "My porridge was too cold, thus goldilocks didn't eat it"
Baby Bear 2:43 says, "my porridge was too hot, thus goldilocks didn't eat it"
Mama bear 5:19 says, "My porridge was juuuuust right, and goldilocks ate it all"
Cousin Bear 6:12 says, "goldilocks ate the damn pie".

Now since we all know that the scripture of Baby bear was written first, and the scriptures of papa bear and mama bear were written by anonymous groups of bear fans many years after the event, BASED off of the book of baby bear, it isn't surprising they have different spins to the same story.

Cousin Bear's scripture was way off from the other three, but that is how cousins do...they just make shit up

So there!

Drooling

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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04-12-2014, 07:15 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
I go to sleep and every one posts. Tongue

(04-12-2014 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:12 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  So... just proposing a deity adds more complexity than it simplifies....

What I find it to be odd, that the question of God, since the advent of Dawkins has a particular framing problem, particularly when you imagine God as an addition, rather than a condition. This issue would not have arose with early unbelievers, who at least understood how to properly frame the question, to argue against God's existence in a meaningful way.

A meaningful discussion about God, is not a discussion about another being per se, but reality itself, whether it has a sense of moral direction, whether it's is nihilistic and meaningless, does it have a rhythm and tune. For me to talk of a God that is something other than a discussion of these sorts of things, is for me not to be talking about God at all, but rather some sort of demiurge that I never believed in the first place.

So... you're going to completely ignore the problem I presented (Not even going to dismiss or comment on whether it might be a problem.) Do a quick cut and paste and fill in the blank with something completely different for your own pontification and/or amusement.

I should now be bothering with you because?

Much cheers to all .
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04-12-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 09:53 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A meaningful discussion about God, is not a discussion about another being per se, but reality itself, whether it has a sense of moral direction, whether it's is nihilistic and meaningless, does it have a rhythm and tune. For me to talk of a God that is something other than a discussion of these sorts of things, is for me not to be talking about God at all, but rather some sort of demiurge that I never believed in the first place.

And therein lies the difference. “Reality” doesn’t have goals. You and me as people can create goals and use our evolved intellect to apply to our daily lives what are called morals. Inanimate things, whether a grain of sand or the known universe, don’t have an opinion or a reason for being or a preconceived direction.

Nicely said/done Full Circle. Thumbsup

Much cheers to all.
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04-12-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 03:35 PM)Gaest Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 10:30 AM)microterf Wrote:  I meant Theist how you described it. If you believe in a god, any god. Zeus, Allah, Etc. I'm curious as to WHY you believe in that god. Just the honest answer is all I'm looking for.

Cool, I'll give it a crack.

I'm a Norse polytheist and as such believe in the existence of multiple gods.

Like most people I have several complimentary reasons for that:

I have an intellectual interest in Old Norse mythology, folklore and religion in the Viking age.
I have friends and a lot of fun tied to the religion.
I get a deep sense of peace and satisfaction when I give offerings to the gods.
I have had what I would call spiritual or at least religious experiences - seldomly outside of rituals.
I genuinely believe that giving offerings will bless me and mine with good fortune and peace in our lives.

Probably pretty short, but it does give a bit to work with for further discussion.

Thank you, that's exactly what I wanted. Explained your reasoning and it makes sense. (not going to convert makes sense, but makes sense what you get out of it. )

I also have a sneaking suspicion that you don't demand your prayers before city council meetings and that your ideas get taught in public schools. Smile

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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04-12-2014, 07:55 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 02:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 01:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  Show the evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that you have actual knowledge of that.

You are one seriously delusional person.

1. On what basis do you know me or know anything about me, that I am "seriously delusional"? I pass myself off, I'll have you know, as a strong family man, church leader, hard worker and all-around-sane-dude. Angel

2. More to the point, if I present evidence that a) Jesus is an existing person, b) that he desires a relationship, c) that I have actual knowledge of that - all three - will you do as I do and swear fealty to Him for the rest of your life? Will you become a Bible believer and preach Jesus here at this forum? Will you trust Jesus for salvation?

3. If I fail to present evidence on some or all of your three points, does that let you off the hook? Are all your existential problems solved already? Are you 100% sure that nothing happens when you die? Do you know your position in this world, your purpose in life, and is your life abundantly lived? Do you have a great "transcendent" peace that is peace and joy despite difficult life circumstances? Are you confident that you have surrendered to a higher power? A friend told me this morning about her NA meetings (recent) and how she could not be admitted to the program until she had a higher power. "Why?!" she asked her sponsor/group leader. They said, "You CANNOT get over your addictions without first admitting the universe doesn't revolve around you and that there is a higher power than you in it. You will fail." I'd present "the good news" differently, sure, but...

Yes, Show me the evidence. If you can prove that Jesus is the son of god, I will convert and proselytize on this forum and everywhere. I would suggest that in your friends case you have it backwards. I think we have a much better argument that you guys feel that the universe revolves around you and your religion than any of us do.

We understand how insignificant we are in the grand scheme of things. Which makes our existence that much more significant.

You think that the universe was designed so that an omnipotent being could have a personal relationship with one species. Why wouldn't he just make the world an nothing else?




Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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05-12-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 07:15 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  So... you're going to completely ignore the problem I presented (Not even going to dismiss or comment on whether it might be a problem.) Do a quick cut and paste and fill in the blank with something completely different for your own pontification and/or amusement.

Because the problem doesn't exist, the problem only exists only for those with trouble framing it.

In the same way the problem of why we haven't seen a monkey give birth to a human being, is a problem only for Creationist, and doesn't exists for anyone who actually believes in evolution.

I've written several post already explaining this, which seemed to have been ignored, because it seems rather than exploring the very question of God, people seem more interested in pursuing their own ideological misconceptions.
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05-12-2014, 08:08 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 03:52 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  An anthropologist working with a qualified historian, sociologist and psycologist.

But not someone who studies literature? A Shakespeare scholar wouldn’t be the best resource to turn to for interpreting Shakespeare? Do you think psychologist and historians and sociologist, and anthropologists are better equipped for this? Are Shakespeare scholars scientist in your view? If so, can New Testaments scholars be?

But I do find something contradictory about this statement. Here you seem to suggest that such individuals can come closer to the true meaning of a text than others, while at the same time claiming:

Quote:There are no wrong interpretations in textual analysis either. Only more correct interpretations.

If there is no such thing as a wrong interpretation, then all interpretations are equally correct. So how can the interpretations of anthropologist etc.. be any more closer to the truth than any other interpretations?

And more importantly, if someone interprets life as having no intrinsic meaning, as being in essence nothing but meaningless noise, would you say his interpretation is no less true or false, than an interpretation that life does have an intrinsic meaning, that human history has a moral arc, etc..? Or do you think one of these interpretations is wrong? Or are they just two correct ones?

I’m also curious as to how this plays out in regards to the scripture.

Take a passage like this:

“"Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”

Interpreter A, claims in this verse John is saying that jesus is a crocodile that makes giraffes.

In your view this is not a wrong interpretation? Just one more correct one?
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