Theists, I want your best reasoning
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05-12-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 08:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  Where did your God come from?

Why would God have to come from anywhere?

Why do we have to come from anywhere? This is the very definition of special pleading.
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05-12-2014, 01:56 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 01:26 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 08:21 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Why would God have to come from anywhere?

Why do we have to come from anywhere? This is the very definition of special pleading.

We exist = GOD

Facepalm

The mountain spews molten rock = GOD

We don't know the answer or cause = GOD

Rolleyes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-12-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 01:56 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 01:26 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Why do we have to come from anywhere? This is the very definition of special pleading.

We exist = GOD

Facepalm

The mountain spews molten rock = GOD

We don't know the answer or cause = GOD

Rolleyes

You are oversimplifying here, especially since many fine scientists and researchers through the years have been devout theists--people we respect for finding and discovering natural causes and natural laws.

Even subtle changes to what you wrote will amplify my meaning.

We don't know why it is so awesome, delicious, orgasmic, fun, joyous, heart-tugging, painful, exotic, beautiful--often THESE questions can be answered by science, sometimes--not so much--God.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-12-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 08:40 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 06:16 PM)pablo Wrote:  Wouldn't mathematically describing the effects of gravity be a precise understanding of how it works?

Grasshopper said both how and why. We understand a lot of the "how", but I don't think we have any inkling as to the "why".

Sort of, but part of it is a misunderstanding about the meanings of "how" and "why". When I kick a football or hit a baseball or push a car out of the snow, it is intuitively obvious how and why those objects move the way they do -- it's because I exerted a force, by direct physical contact, on those objects. It's not so obvious with gravity. "Action at a distance" even baffled Newton, and he was a far greater genius than most of us. He was content to describe gravity mathematically (and so was Einstein, although in a different way) without worrying about the nuts and bolts of how it actually works -- i.e., how is the force transmitted between objects that are separated by large distances? That's what I was trying to get at.
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05-12-2014, 03:15 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 03:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 01:56 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  We exist = GOD

Facepalm

The mountain spews molten rock = GOD

We don't know the answer or cause = GOD

Rolleyes

You are oversimplifying here, especially since many fine scientists and researchers through the years have been devout theists--people we respect for finding and discovering natural causes and natural laws.

Even subtle changes to what you wrote will amplify my meaning.

We don't know why it is so awesome, delicious, orgasmic, fun, joyous, heart-tugging, painful, exotic, beautiful--often THESE questions can be answered by science, sometimes--not so much--God.

Sometimes the best answers are simple. To posit a made up diety simply because we don't know the answers to many questions is childish. The great pumpkin created everything, all hail the great pumpkin...silly isn't it...which is my point.

Knowledge of "god" is derived from a book written by man, which any thinking analytical person can dismantle, then with a bit of science and understanding of history, completely flush down the toilet as garbage...maybe there isnt a "meaning of life" ...I know that is frightening to consider isn't it? but I am fairly certain there exists ZERO evidence for this "caring god" you claim....just ask the 14 million jews marched into the ovens...or the millions who die from cancer, speaking of cancer, that big hot ball in the sky bombards us with cancer causing rays daily......intelligent design? no.

You seem to be fairly intelligent and educated, how can you believe such BS? It is ok not to know the answers....with science we will learn more....faith is for those who can't deal with not knowing, or who are scared of our impending and inevitable death...and stories of a way to cheat death via the rapture is simply fairy tales designed to calm those gullible enough to unquestionably accept it. Don't be gullible Q, you are smarter than this..

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-12-2014, 04:17 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 03:11 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 08:40 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Grasshopper said both how and why. We understand a lot of the "how", but I don't think we have any inkling as to the "why".

Sort of, but part of it is a misunderstanding about the meanings of "how" and "why". When I kick a football or hit a baseball or push a car out of the snow, it is intuitively obvious how and why those objects move the way they do -- it's because I exerted a force, by direct physical contact, on those objects. It's not so obvious with gravity. "Action at a distance" even baffled Newton, and he was a far greater genius than most of us. He was content to describe gravity mathematically (and so was Einstein, although in a different way) without worrying about the nuts and bolts of how it actually works -- i.e., how is the force transmitted between objects that are separated by large distances? That's what I was trying to get at.

I get that.
The reasons for asking "why" can be very different though.
Are we asking because we want to know more about the force that causes large bodies to interact over vast distances?
Or, are we asking why an inelligent being is causing these bodies to act the way they do?
When you wrote: "We can mathematically describe its effects, but we don't understand it at all. Might as well be God..."
This to me is, I don't know = god did it.
Of course I know that's not how you meant it, but sometimes the line between scientific understanding and personal beliefs can be very fine.
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05-12-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 04:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 03:11 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Sort of, but part of it is a misunderstanding about the meanings of "how" and "why". When I kick a football or hit a baseball or push a car out of the snow, it is intuitively obvious how and why those objects move the way they do -- it's because I exerted a force, by direct physical contact, on those objects. It's not so obvious with gravity. "Action at a distance" even baffled Newton, and he was a far greater genius than most of us. He was content to describe gravity mathematically (and so was Einstein, although in a different way) without worrying about the nuts and bolts of how it actually works -- i.e., how is the force transmitted between objects that are separated by large distances? That's what I was trying to get at.

I get that.
The reasons for asking "why" can be very different though.
Are we asking because we want to know more about the force that causes large bodies to interact over vast distances?
Or, are we asking why an inelligent being is causing these bodies to act the way they do?
When you wrote: "We can mathematically describe its effects, but we don't understand it at all. Might as well be God..."
This to me is, I don't know = god did it.
Of course I know that's not how you meant it, but sometimes the line between scientific understanding and personal beliefs can be very fine.

Yeah, I definitely didn't mean "I don't know = god did it". I'm an atheist, and to me "I don't know" just means "I don't know". But I can see the motivation for some people to put a god in there. Gravity is pretty mysterious.

My college physics textbook (Halliday & Resnick) had a few questions about stuff like "Why are the fundamental constants and laws what they are?" I always found those questions meaningless and annoying. Physics is about description and prediction and finding whatever order there is to be found in nature. "Why?" isn't even in the picture.
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05-12-2014, 05:00 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 04:31 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 04:17 PM)pablo Wrote:  I get that.
The reasons for asking "why" can be very different though.
Are we asking because we want to know more about the force that causes large bodies to interact over vast distances?
Or, are we asking why an inelligent being is causing these bodies to act the way they do?
When you wrote: "We can mathematically describe its effects, but we don't understand it at all. Might as well be God..."
This to me is, I don't know = god did it.
Of course I know that's not how you meant it, but sometimes the line between scientific understanding and personal beliefs can be very fine.

Yeah, I definitely didn't mean "I don't know = god did it". I'm an atheist, and to me "I don't know" just means "I don't know". But I can see the motivation for some people to put a god in there. Gravity is pretty mysterious.

My college physics textbook (Halliday & Resnick) had a few questions about stuff like "Why are the fundamental constants and laws what they are?" I always found those questions meaningless and annoying. Physics is about description and prediction and finding whatever order there is to be found in nature. "Why?" isn't even in the picture.

You're obviously way more knowledgeable in physics than I am. It's easy to see why people want to stick a god into the mix. Maybe sometimes the "how" is the "why" and that's all.
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05-12-2014, 05:29 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
I'm just a dabbler in physics. It's one of many things that I know a little bit about. My knowledge is broad but shallow. Some people on the forum are real™ physicists, and could quickly put me in my place if they so desired.
Tongue
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05-12-2014, 05:41 PM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(05-12-2014 03:06 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-12-2014 01:56 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  We exist = GOD

Facepalm

The mountain spews molten rock = GOD

We don't know the answer or cause = GOD

Rolleyes

You are oversimplifying here, especially since many fine scientists and researchers through the years have been devout theists--people we respect for finding and discovering natural causes and natural laws.

Even subtle changes to what you wrote will amplify my meaning.

We don't know why it is so awesome, delicious, orgasmic, fun, joyous, heart-tugging, painful, exotic, beautiful--often THESE questions can be answered by science, sometimes--not so much--God.

Q, the thing is that it really IS that simple. You see most people on here have been in your position before. It's not like we all stopped believing because we wanted to.

I can only speak for myself, but I would bet that almost everyone here only became atheist when they started looking for evidence to SUPPORT their faith. It was only then that we were able to see that our faith was nothing more than an onion. Layers and layers of lies that we believed for years. Where we assumed that some things were factual or had supporting evidence, we found that there was none.

This is why we are here. It's not that we don't have anything better to do, we understand the psychological damage that lies can do. Especially lies about the most important things in life.

Every time you hear "The true meaning of Christmas" these next few weeks, think about how the person who speaks that has no idea that Jesus wasn't born on Christmas, and Christians put their holiday there to recruit others from another well established pagan holiday. I don't think that ignorance is ok, do you?

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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