Theists, I want your best reasoning
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04-12-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(03-12-2014 09:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  You are asking too much.

You have to start with something easier, like why is the sky blue or something similar just to get an idea where they stand on basics. We can explicitly tell them its an open book questionnaire.

1. Why is the sky blue?
2. What is a rainbow?
3. What causes earthquakes?
4. If you traveled East along the equator from Quito, Ecuador for 24,901 miles (40,075 km) where would you end up?
5. When you watch a magician make a rabbit disappear, do you think it is a sleight of hand or that the rabbit truly disappeared?
6. Have you played the game Chinese whispers?
7. Describe an optical illusion.
8. If Dick or Jane jumped off the roof would you jump too?
9. Do you follow your doctor’s advice?
10. Have you ever tortured a small animal?

I have reasons why I ask each of these questions and I think we could gather some rudimentary information from said theist.

Oh these questions are too easy!
1) because god likes blue.
2) god put it there as a promise to never again flood the world.
3) god
4) you would eventually reach the ocean and drown. Ultimately you would end up in heaven or hell if you're an atheist.
5) magic is the work of The devil.
6) most Chinese people are going to hell. Their games are the work of the devil.
7) work of the devil.
8) only if dick is a preacher. I wouldn't follow a woman as they are easily swayed by the devil.
9) only if my preacher says it's ok.
10) whenever god tells me to.
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04-12-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 09:36 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Because (and Peebothuhul touched on this in a way that is probably more eloquent) the idea of a god is more than just the idea of some kind of initial incident for the universe. Off the top of my head the assumptions that are required for the GOA to exist are:

-A thing with all of these, extremely complex traits can come from nothing without rising from a set of simple conditions.
-That things can change without time.*
-Something immaterial can interact with the material world.*
-That an immaterial thing has a spacial relationship with the material world.*
-A mechanism exists through which the immaterial thing can interact with the material world in a way that violates casualty and relativity.
-An intelligence can exist without a brain.* (Or if you prefer; Immaterial things exist.)
-That this intelligence has attributable, humanlike characteristics.
-That intelligence can also create something from nothing using some mechanism.*
-The various physical laws as we understand them can be bypassed.
-Information is not interpretive.* (This applies to both the idea of moral absolutism and the idea that omniscience in some way implies objectivity.)

*Logical impossibility.

Again this is a framing problem.

It's movement away for a question of was my house robbed, to one about who was the robber. Belief is not about the robber, as it about the robbery, and all that can ever be said about the robber, is what he revealed of himself in the robbery, that he must of really liked my silverware, and flat screen tv.

The cops may concern themselves with finding the robber, how tall he was, whether he was a repeat offender, a black male, or some spirit alien from another dimension, but the essence of belief doesn't, which is concerned solely with what has been revealed, through human life, it's history, and it's experiences. It's about the song, more so than the musician.
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04-12-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
That's the dumbest shit I ever heard.

What are going assume about the robber if the robbery took place on, lets say, Uranus?
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04-12-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:08 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  That's the dumbest shit I ever heard.

What are going assume about the robber if the robbery took place on, lets say, Uranus?

The same things I said previously. That that robber must of have really liked my flat screen tv, and silverware.
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04-12-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:36 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Because (and Peebothuhul touched on this in a way that is probably more eloquent) the idea of a god is more than just the idea of some kind of initial incident for the universe. Off the top of my head the assumptions that are required for the GOA to exist are:

-A thing with all of these, extremely complex traits can come from nothing without rising from a set of simple conditions.
-That things can change without time.*
-Something immaterial can interact with the material world.*
-That an immaterial thing has a spacial relationship with the material world.*
-A mechanism exists through which the immaterial thing can interact with the material world in a way that violates casualty and relativity.
-An intelligence can exist without a brain.* (Or if you prefer; Immaterial things exist.)
-That this intelligence has attributable, humanlike characteristics.
-That intelligence can also create something from nothing using some mechanism.*
-The various physical laws as we understand them can be bypassed.
-Information is not interpretive.* (This applies to both the idea of moral absolutism and the idea that omniscience in some way implies objectivity.)

*Logical impossibility.

Again this is a framing problem.

It's movement away for a question of was my house robbed, to one about who was the robber. Belief is not about the robber, as it about the robbery, and all that can ever be said about the robber, is what he revealed of himself in the robbery, that he must of really liked my silverware, and flat screen tv.

The cops may concern themselves with finding the robber, how tall he was, whether he was a repeat offender, a black male, or some spirit alien from another dimension, but the essence of belief doesn't, which is concerned solely with what has been revealed, through human life, it's history, and it's experiences. It's about the song, more so than the musician.

So all of your pseudo-cosmological arguments really just boil down to everybody's favourite,
"Look at the trees!"?

Eesh.

Why should anyone else privilege your naive feels on the matter? "Existence exists, therefore God" is not a sane thought.
(let alone the equally non sequitur leap from a God to any given specific God...)

... this is my signature!
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04-12-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Again this is a framing problem.

It's movement away for a question of was my house robbed, to one about who was the robber. Belief is not about the robber, as it about the robbery, and all that can ever be said about the robber, is what he revealed of himself in the robbery, that he must of really liked my silverware, and flat screen tv.

This is just a flowery way of saying that existence is proof of a creator.

You are using an analogy of a robber because one can imagine being robbed themselves and it being obvious as to what happened. You are then saying that this is equivalent to existence being evidence of a creator. It is a false analogy.

You are being inconsistent by relying on observational evidence when it suits you and ignoring it when it doesn't.

You are saying that observational evidence of being robbed is enough to assume that a robber exists and that he robbed you.

Yet you are ignoring observational evidence of Darwinian evolution, self organisation & non-equilibrium thermodynamics, geological samples, cosmic background radiation, red shift and the fact that GPS needs to take into account general relativity consistent with the theory of an expanding universe and consequently a big bang.

All this observational evidence makes any god increasingly irrelevant and less likely.

Existence is not proof of a creator.
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04-12-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
Your God sounds like a material dick.
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04-12-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(03-12-2014 09:20 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  You are asking too much.

You have to start with something easier, like why is the sky blue or something similar just to get an idea where they stand on basics. We can explicitly tell them its an open book questionnaire.

1. Why is the sky blue?
2. What is a rainbow?
3. What causes earthquakes?
4. If you traveled East along the equator from Quito, Ecuador for 24,901 miles (40,075 km) where would you end up?
5. When you watch a magician make a rabbit disappear, do you think it is a sleight of hand or that the rabbit truly disappeared?
6. Have you played the game Chinese whispers?
7. Describe an optical illusion.
8. If Dick or Jane jumped off the roof would you jump too?
9. Do you follow your doctor’s advice?
10. Have you ever tortured a small animal?

I have reasons why I ask each of these questions and I think we could gather some rudimentary information from said theist.

Should add to that a question about the diversity of life on earth... Its worth knowing if you're dealing with a creationist.
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04-12-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 07:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-12-2014 07:02 PM)microterf Wrote:  I see a lot of Christians that come on here and make comment on the threads, I have yet to see one of them make a good point that didn't have an obvious rebuttal, and they are always attacking other views. I would like to hear the best argument that you can give for why YOU believe. You've obviously read through a lot of the same stuff the rest of us have, yet somehow still believe. Sell me with your best argument.

I'll step up.

The tide goes in, tide goes out. Never a miscommunication. You can’t explain that.
I have a hard time believing that the reason you believe in a god is because the tide goes out and back in. What I'm asking for is a simple post of "I believe in god x because _______" I just want the honest truth, it could be because you're scared of dying being the end, or you want to believe, or because my parents told me about god Etc. Whatever the reason you actually believe is what I want.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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04-12-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 04:57 AM)Gaest Wrote:  One of the bigger reasons I comment little in threads like this is honestly because of the usage of the word "theist".

"Theism" in the broadest sense refers to belief in the existence of one or more deities - which is why the opposite is called "Atheism".
However in popular usages it is often seen as referring specifically to the god concept found in Abrahamic religions (which seems to be the case in the OP as well)... And while I fit the former, I do not fit the latter.

Now, that the discourses concerning religion is often centred around Abrahamic religion is not necessarily bad, but it does exclude a few people like me from time to time.
Please don't take it as me complaining, but more as a heads up that if you want people from all religions to comment you have to broaden your discourse and terminology a bit.

microterf, this is not a comment about this thread in particular, but more rooted in what I think is some general trends, if you were solely looking for Christians to debate I'm sorry for disturbing you.

I meant Theist how you described it. If you believe in a god, any god. Zeus, Allah, Etc. I'm curious as to WHY you believe in that god. Just the honest answer is all I'm looking for.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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