Theists, I want your best reasoning
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04-12-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:00 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's movement away for a question of was my house robbed, to one about who was the robber. Belief is not about the robber, as it about the robbery, and all that can ever be said about the robber, is what he revealed of himself in the robbery, that he must of really liked my silverware, and flat screen tv.

If a robber steals silverware and a flat screen TV from my house, I'm not going to think or say "I believe I've been robbed and that robber liked my silverware and TV". I'm going to think or say "I've been robbed and that robber liked my silverware and TV" because it's knowledge, not belief. Your analogy fails.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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04-12-2014, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2014 10:40 AM by Full Circle.)
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:17 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  You are saying that observational evidence of being robbed is enough to assume that a robber exists and that he robbed you.

Consider Tomasia's analogy of "creator = robber" might not be too far off the mark, after all believing in a creator being robs you of your common sense faculties.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 09:53 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  And therein lies the difference. “Reality” doesn’t have goals.

That seem to be the point of difference, the line between belief and unbelief, the view of life as some monstrous but beautiful work of art, and one of life as a series of food stains smattered on a shirt, that might be nice-looking in a certain light, but is otherwise meaningless noise.
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04-12-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 09:53 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  And therein lies the difference. “Reality” doesn’t have goals.

That seem to be the point of difference, the line between belief and unbelief, the view of life as some monstrous but beautiful work of art, and one of life as a series of food stains smattered on a shirt, that might be nice-looking in a certain light, but is otherwise meaningless noise.

It's only meaningless if you let it be.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  It's only meaningless if you let it be.

Meaningless noise, is not meaningless noise because I let it be, it just is.
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04-12-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 10:40 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  That seem to be the point of difference, the line between belief and unbelief, the view of life as some monstrous but beautiful work of art, and one of life as a series of food stains smattered on a shirt, that might be nice-looking in a certain light, but is otherwise meaningless noise.

It's only meaningless if you let it be.

To presuppose a universal teleology - which believers will then tell you they don't actually know in any case - is pathological cosmic narcissism.

Small children also think there must be an external purpose for everything they see. Then they grow up.

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04-12-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 10:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  It's only meaningless if you let it be.

Meaningless noise, is not meaningless noise because I let it be, it just is.

We may be talking about two different things here, the universe and human existence.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-12-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-12-2014 10:42 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  It's only meaningless if you let it be.

Meaningless noise, is not meaningless noise because I let it be, it just is.

Meaning is what we apply to things. So if something is meaningless it is because you have not applied meaning to it.

Meaning requires an intelligent observer with preferences and interests.
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04-12-2014, 11:04 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:49 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Small children also think there must be an external purpose for everything they see. Then they grow up.

I know, Bonhoeffer, Rev. King, Oscar Romero, Herbert Mccabe were all small children, unlike the emblems of adult hood, like Dawkins and Hitchens, and those that line the halls of this forum space.
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04-12-2014, 11:09 AM
RE: Theists, I want your best reasoning
(04-12-2014 10:59 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Meaning is what we apply to things. So if something is meaningless it is because you have not applied meaning to it.

Meaning is not what we apply to things, it's something we find in things.

The universe being meaningless, is not a matter of application, it's a matter of it is, or isn't.
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