Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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14-07-2017, 07:02 PM (This post was last modified: 14-07-2017 08:26 PM by Cosmo.)
Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
This seems to be one of the last mountains theists are willing to die on.

Today, in the Western World, the idea of slavery is self-evidently abhorrent. However; during the period of history in which the biblical authors were alive, slavery was not only condoned, but God's rules regarding the ownership of slaves were laid out in detail.

Let me be clear, God in his "infinite wisdom" did not condemn slavery. Particularly cognitively dissonant theists will proclaim that an all powerful deity was pandering to the world views of primeval lamb herders, and so couldn't condemn slavery to them, because their response in essence, would be, "WTF." Regardless of the circumstances, fake Yahweh condoned the idea that some humans are worth less than others.

Today we know that any conscious experience of the world is just as valuable as any other.

Now, as God, I wouldn't particularly care what your reactions to my ideas about human worth would be. If you don't like it when I say don't own other people... may I use Christian parlance, from the viewpoint of God, when I say, "go to hell." It's not allowed. As God, I would have drawn that line in the sand, and let humans take the thousands of years that were seemingly necessary to figure out I was right. Cuz I'm God.

Edit: would condemning slavery thousands of years in advance of everyone else not have been more evidence for this God's existence and moral superiority than a strewn together group of refutables? Would you not be more convinced of Jesus' divinity if he had spoken about Penicillin and antibiotics 2000 years prior to their discovery? Or if Jesus had relayed in detail, the true nature of the Cosmos?... maybe? I dunno.

It is a grievous endictment against this God that he made no preservation for the point in history where human morality would surpass his own.

Now... what I want to suggest, that is self-evidently true, is that secular morality has influenced the lense through which believers read their scriptures. The example which I just laid out is slavery. Nowadays, when a believer encounters passages regarding slavery, believers tend to historically contextualize these ideas about owning people as nonsense; an anomaly of the moment so to speak, and completely overlook them, subconsciously rationalizing that the God of goat-herders didn't know what he was talking about when he said it's okay to own other people. It was a blip of the time... to be disregarded.

God was pandering... it would seem.

What I would like to suggest then is simple. It is that the moral ideas which Christians find reasonable nowadays, will, in 50-100 years, seem totally absurd. Oppressing people because of who they choose to have sex with, or how, when it is not in any way their business, for example. What I find fascinating, is that when secularists begin to understand an attribute about life that has moral implications, the lense through which the religious read their books seems to change.

Non-Fundie Catholics for instance, at least those Archbishops who hold notable positions of power, almost universally believe in evolution, and a large portion of Archbishops are coming to realize that your sexuality is your business. Not theirs. Homosexuality has a genetic basis. Right now, the Christian church has a bad track record of persecuting homosexuals.

And in 100 years, I'm sure the idea will seem just as absurd as slavery. Slavery is mentioned more in the Bible than homosexuality, yet is considered more absurd by Christians who are also humanists.

Just a thought.

So, the only question I would like to ask is... why does humanist morality surpass God's morality? Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses, while accepting all of the good bits Yahweh orates that appeal to you?

Have you not created your own God?

Again... just a thought. Regards! Smile
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14-07-2017, 07:46 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Exodus 21
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

----

So, when did men lose the God given right to sell their daughters into concubinage?

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

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15-07-2017, 12:27 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Why doesn't God come down and give these fuckers Bible 3.0 in which he finally says all the stuff they pretend it says?

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15-07-2017, 01:14 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Not condemning slavery is bad enough but Bible states that god committed genocide and yet believers worship him. That should tell you something about their morality.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-07-2017, 02:58 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 01:14 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Not condemning slavery is bad enough but Bible states that god committed genocide and yet believers worship him. That should tell you something about their morality.

> The most common excuse I've heard Christian apologists use, in this case, is that since God is the all-powerful author of life, he has the right to do anything he wants with it. In effect, when God commits murder, it isn't really murder. Go figure! Facepalm
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15-07-2017, 03:02 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:58 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 01:14 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Not condemning slavery is bad enough but Bible states that god committed genocide and yet believers worship him. That should tell you something about their morality.

> The most common excuse I've heard Christian apologists use, in this case, is that since God is the all-powerful author of life, he has the right to do anything he wants with it. In effect, when God commits murder, it isn't really murder. Go figure! Facepalm

This is why I say that theists remind me of USSR apologists - whatever Soviet state did was good cause it was in interest of progress and Revolution. It's not that much different from what god apologists do.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-07-2017, 05:59 AM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 06:07 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(14-07-2017 07:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  This seems to be one of the last mountains theists are willing to die on.

Today, in the Western World, the idea of slavery is self-evidently abhorrent. However; during the period of history in which the biblical authors were alive, slavery was not only condoned, but God's rules regarding the ownership of slaves were laid out in detail.

Let me be clear, God in his "infinite wisdom" did not condemn slavery. Particularly cognitively dissonant theists will proclaim that an all powerful deity was pandering to the world views of primeval lamb herders, and so couldn't condemn slavery to them, because their response in essence, would be, "WTF." Regardless of the circumstances, fake Yahweh condoned the idea that some humans are worth less than others.

Today we know that any conscious experience of the world is just as valuable as any other.

Now, as God, I wouldn't particularly care what your reactions to my ideas about human worth would be. If you don't like it when I say don't own other people... may I use Christian parlance, from the viewpoint of God, when I say, "go to hell." It's not allowed. As God, I would have drawn that line in the sand, and let humans take the thousands of years that were seemingly necessary to figure out I was right. Cuz I'm God.

Edit: would condemning slavery thousands of years in advance of everyone else not have been more evidence for this God's existence and moral superiority than a strewn together group of refutables? Would you not be more convinced of Jesus' divinity if he had spoken about Penicillin and antibiotics 2000 years prior to their discovery? Or if Jesus had relayed in detail, the true nature of the Cosmos?... maybe? I dunno.

It is a grievous endictment against this God that he made no preservation for the point in history where human morality would surpass his own.

Now... what I want to suggest, that is self-evidently true, is that secular morality has influenced the lense through which believers read their scriptures. The example which I just laid out is slavery. Nowadays, when a believer encounters passages regarding slavery, believers tend to historically contextualize these ideas about owning people as nonsense; an anomaly of the moment so to speak, and completely overlook them, subconsciously rationalizing that the God of goat-herders didn't know what he was talking about when he said it's okay to own other people. It was a blip of the time... to be disregarded.

God was pandering... it would seem.

What I would like to suggest then is simple. It is that the moral ideas which Christians find reasonable nowadays, will, in 50-100 years, seem totally absurd. Oppressing people because of who they choose to have sex with, or how, when it is not in any way their business, for example. What I find fascinating, is that when secularists begin to understand an attribute about life that has moral implications, the lense through which the religious read their books seems to change.

Non-Fundie Catholics for instance, at least those Archbishops who hold notable positions of power, almost universally believe in evolution, and a large portion of Archbishops are coming to realize that your sexuality is your business. Not theirs. Homosexuality has a genetic basis. Right now, the Christian church has a bad track record of persecuting homosexuals.

And in 100 years, I'm sure the idea will seem just as absurd as slavery. Slavery is mentioned more in the Bible than homosexuality, yet is considered more absurd by Christians who are also humanists.

Just a thought.

So, the only question I would like to ask is... why does humanist morality surpass God's morality? Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses, while accepting all of the good bits Yahweh orates that appeal to you?

Have you not created your own God?

Again... just a thought. Regards! Smile

Quote:why does humanist morality surpass God's morality?
Humanist morality is certainly more useful and practical in secular countries in the 21st century. But I don't know what do you mean by "surpassing".
Slavery might have been an inseparable part of the human societies at some points in the history, therefore certain rules were needed for this practice. I think the fact that the Bible mentions a set of rules for this practice doesn't make it immoral.

Quote:Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses
If you consider the context, you will notice that the morality in the Bible is adaptive with the society in which it was revealed and one can see it as "useful" when considering the evolution of morality during that specific period. So I don't think the morality in the Bible is absurd.

I think if morality in the Bible resembled the current humanist morality it would have been absurd, since the current humanist morality would have been impractical and useless concerning the social structures and belief systems of people in 2000 years ago.

I think there are good arguments concerning the inconsistencies and unscientific assertions in the Bible, and I personally think there are many things wrong with the Bible. But I don't think arguments about morality can point to the God of Christianity being delusional.
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15-07-2017, 07:26 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:58 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 01:14 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Not condemning slavery is bad enough but Bible states that god committed genocide and yet believers worship him. That should tell you something about their morality.

> The most common excuse I've heard Christian apologists use, in this case, is that since God is the all-powerful author of life, he has the right to do anything he wants with it. In effect, when God commits murder, it isn't really murder. Go figure! Facepalm

Or in other words, God is ammoral. Which is not morally perfect. Not good, not just, merciful or compassionate. Something is wrong here. Badly, seriously wrong.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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15-07-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 07:26 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:58 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > The most common excuse I've heard Christian apologists use, in this case, is that since God is the all-powerful author of life, he has the right to do anything he wants with it. In effect, when God commits murder, it isn't really murder. Go figure! Facepalm

Or in other words, God is ammoral. Which is not morally perfect. Not good, not just, merciful or compassionate. Something is wrong here. Badly, seriously wrong.

We can't judge it by human standards, apparently. Nor by its own standards. We must instead use a far lesser standard.

Or we conclude God is so pathetic that the best he could do with the desert people was a mildly progressive system for the time.

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15-07-2017, 09:30 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 08:23 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 07:26 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Or in other words, God is ammoral. Which is not morally perfect. Not good, not just, merciful or compassionate. Something is wrong here. Badly, seriously wrong.

We can't judge it by human standards, apparently. Nor by its own standards. We must instead use a far lesser standard.

Or we conclude God is so pathetic that the best he could do with the desert people was a mildly progressive system for the time.

I don't know if I would even call it midly progressive. The Vedas, the Hindu holy book, mentions slavery but it's not in the same context. It's more of a philosophiic text from what I remember. I could be wrong but I don't think the Hindu god/gods condone slavery as the biblical god does.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
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Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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