Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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15-07-2017, 10:43 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Why would god give the Israelites a mulligan on slavery (after, according to the story, being released from bondage), yet get pissed off that they're bothering a golden statue?

"Yabut, gawd has an all-encompassing divine EXCUSE to have his bullshit both ways! By proxy, so do I!"

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15-07-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 09:30 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I don't know if I would even call it midly progressive. The Vedas, the Hindu holy book, mentions slavery but it's not in the same context. It's more of a philosophiic text from what I remember. I could be wrong but I don't think the Hindu god/gods condone slavery as the biblical god does.

The Veda doesn't address slavery directly as it consider the institution of slavery as already normal and regulated by its own customs and rules. It seldom makes pronouncement on slavery beside the fact that it exist and is completly normal, acceptable and makes for great gifts and offering. It does makes pronoucement on women though. All women under the Veda are basically impossible to distinguish from slaves. It also classify the various types of slaves with a specific interest on religious prostitution. You shouldn't expect much better from a country that counts at this very moment has over 18 million people living in slavery.

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15-07-2017, 01:36 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 01:44 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting slavery, my concern is a philosophical one, I'm interested to know how one can assert absolute propositions without relaying on some absolute entity like God.
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15-07-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 12:37 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 09:30 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I don't know if I would even call it midly progressive. The Vedas, the Hindu holy book, mentions slavery but it's not in the same context. It's more of a philosophiic text from what I remember. I could be wrong but I don't think the Hindu god/gods condone slavery as the biblical god does.

The Veda doesn't address slavery directly as it consider the institution of slavery as already normal and regulated by its own customs and rules. It seldom makes pronouncement on slavery beside the fact that it exist and is completly normal, acceptable and makes for great gifts and offering. It does makes pronoucement on women though. All women under the Veda are basically impossible to distinguish from slaves. It also classify the various types of slaves with a specific interest on religious prostitution. You shouldn't expect much better from a country that counts at this very moment has over 18 million people living in slavery.

Thanks. It's been a long time since I read the Veda. It's a lot of woo-hoo.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-07-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting slavery, my concern is a philosophical one, I'm interested to know how one can assert absolute propositions without relaying on some absolute entity like God.

It is absolute within a value system. I value human dignity and freedom of choice and slavery detracts from that. There is no need for a ruling from a god; I am perfectly capable of evaluating whether a particular action promotes happiness and well-being or causes suffering and misery.

it's the theists that have no actual basis for morality other than "might makes right".

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15-07-2017, 02:13 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I need no space wizard to know that hurting others isn't good. Empathy is enough and social framework is helping.

Quote:I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Others will probably say it more eloquently but for me it is very simple. If you aren't despicable human being then you do not think that slavery can be justified. It may sound like something that first grader thought up but I don't have much use for trying to justify not being a shit person. Slavery is shitty thing to do by it's own definition.

It may not sound convincing, but if one need to hear some convincing argument to condemn slavery then one has a problem I would say.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-07-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:09 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting slavery, my concern is a philosophical one, I'm interested to know how one can assert absolute propositions without relaying on some absolute entity like God.

It is absolute within a value system. I value human dignity and freedom of choice and slavery detracts from that. There is no need for a ruling from a god; I am perfectly capable of evaluating whether a particular action promotes happiness and well-being or causes suffering and misery.

it's the theists that have no actual basis for morality other than "might makes right".

I see, so you are relying on yourself for asserting moral propositions and consider yourself as the source of absolute moral values. I actually think this is a good position. But if you want to claim that "Slavery is absolutely wrong" you must also believe that "my values are absolutely true", do you believe your personal values are absolute?

For example someone might have a different value system:
"I value human survival, therefore if slavery can serve the human survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it"

What's your thoughts on this?

Quote:it's the theists that have no actual basis for morality other than "might makes right".
I didn't get that part. A theist says "X is wrong because God says so" it's pretty consistent, isn't it?
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15-07-2017, 02:30 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting slavery, my concern is a philosophical one, I'm interested to know how one can assert absolute propositions without relaying on some absolute entity like God.

Morality is evolutionary. Taking care of your children and seeing them survive passes on your genes. Helping your neighbors, showing them empathy, insures stability for your surroundings and for your children. A stable environment safeguards ones ability to pass on ones genes. It has nothing to do with a god.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-07-2017, 02:35 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:13 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I need no space wizard to know that hurting others isn't good. Empathy is enough and social framework is helping.

Quote:I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Others will probably say it more eloquently but for me it is very simple. If you aren't despicable human being then you do not think that slavery can be justified. It may sound like something that first grader thought up but I don't have much use for trying to justify not being a shit person. Slavery is shitty thing to do by it's own definition.

It may not sound convincing, but if one need to hear some convincing argument to condemn slavery then one has a problem I would say.

Quote:I need no space wizard to know that hurting others isn't good. Empathy is enough and social framework is helping.
That's something to talk about. You see for us to be able to infer some absolute moral propositions, we must rely on something absolute. But empathy is not something absolute is it? Is my empathy the same as yours? Does your empathy remain the same thing over time? or it changes as you live and experience more? So if your empathy changes, it cannot be a basis for absolute moral values. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "empathy"? maybe for you it is something unchanging, unaffected and absolute?
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15-07-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:30 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 01:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"
But I can't see how an atheist can assert such absolute propositions without relying on some sort of God.

I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting slavery, my concern is a philosophical one, I'm interested to know how one can assert absolute propositions without relaying on some absolute entity like God.

Morality is evolutionary. Taking care of your children and seeing them survive passes on your genes. Helping your neighbors, showing them empathy, insures stability for your surroundings and for your children. A stable environment safeguards ones ability to pass on ones genes. It has nothing to do with a god.

I find what you say to be true. But it doesn't show how can one assert "Slavery is absolutely wrong" in fact you are negating such propositions. By suggesting that morality is evolutionary, you are suggesting that morality is ever changing. So we cannot have time-invariant, absolute moral values, that would go agains the evolutionary nature of morality. What's your thoughts on this?
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