Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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15-07-2017, 02:42 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 02:46 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:35 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:13 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  I need no space wizard to know that hurting others isn't good. Empathy is enough and social framework is helping.


Others will probably say it more eloquently but for me it is very simple. If you aren't despicable human being then you do not think that slavery can be justified. It may sound like something that first grader thought up but I don't have much use for trying to justify not being a shit person. Slavery is shitty thing to do by it's own definition.

It may not sound convincing, but if one need to hear some convincing argument to condemn slavery then one has a problem I would say.

Quote:I need no space wizard to know that hurting others isn't good. Empathy is enough and social framework is helping.
That's something to talk about. You see for us to be able to infer some absolute moral propositions, we must rely on something absolute. But empathy is not something absolute is it? Is my empathy the same as yours? Does your empathy remain the same thing over time? or it changes as you live and experience more? So if your empathy changes, it cannot be a basis for absolute moral values. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "empathy"? maybe for you it is something unchanging, unaffected and absolute?

It's you who talk about absolutes. Looks like some kind of obsession to me judging by how often you use this word.

And there isn't much to talk about - I'm not piece of shit so I condemn slavery. Expected some elaborate pseudo-philosophical* ramblings? Tough shit if so.


*Had only one year of philosophy during University courses. Wasn't much interested. Hence the pseudo word.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-07-2017, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 02:49 PM by Robvalue.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
The difference between secular and religious morality is that with the former it's the reasoning behind the morality that matters; while with the latter, it's just about who is saying it.

Values are subjective, yes. I reject the notion of any kind of "correct" objective morality.

If we agree wellbeing (of all) is valuable, then it seems reasonable to conclude slavery is bad (especially considering the "veil of ignorance").

For people with other values, they will of course reach different conclusions. It's then a matter of debate, to see if anyone can convince others of anything. "God says so" is not much of an argument.

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15-07-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:42 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:35 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  That's something to talk about. You see for us to be able to infer some absolute moral propositions, we must rely on something absolute. But empathy is not something absolute is it? Is my empathy the same as yours? Does your empathy remain the same thing over time? or it changes as you live and experience more? So if your empathy changes, it cannot be a basis for absolute moral values. Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "empathy"? maybe for you it is something unchanging, unaffected and absolute?

It's you who talk about absolutes. Looks like some kind of obsession to me judging by how often you use this word.

And there isn't much to talk about - I'm not piece of shit so I condemn slavery. Expected some elaborate pseudo-philosophical* ramblings? Tough shit if so.


*Had only one year of philosophy during University courses. Wasn't much interested. Hence the pseudo word.
I understand your position and I actually think that's the best one considering many "serious" issues. "Somethings don't need to and cannot be talked about". That actually sums-up my worldview. Wink
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15-07-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:48 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:42 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  It's you who talk about absolutes. Looks like some kind of obsession to me judging by how often you use this word.

And there isn't much to talk about - I'm not piece of shit so I condemn slavery. Expected some elaborate pseudo-philosophical* ramblings? Tough shit if so.


*Had only one year of philosophy during University courses. Wasn't much interested. Hence the pseudo word.
I understand your position and I actually think that's the best one considering many "serious" issues. "Somethings don't need to and cannot be talked about". That actually sums-up my worldview. Wink

It can be talked about, there is just no point in doing so. If you think it is bad then we agree, if you think that it isn't bad then my contempt for you would make discussion impossible.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-07-2017, 02:59 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 03:03 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:22 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:09 PM)unfogged Wrote:  It is absolute within a value system. I value human dignity and freedom of choice and slavery detracts from that. There is no need for a ruling from a god; I am perfectly capable of evaluating whether a particular action promotes happiness and well-being or causes suffering and misery.

it's the theists that have no actual basis for morality other than "might makes right".

I see, so you are relying on yourself for asserting moral propositions and consider yourself as the source of absolute moral values. I actually think this is a good position.

No, that's not what I said. I said the position was absolute within the values system. That is not at all the same as absolute values. If you do not value happiness, well-being, and personal freedom then we would be operating in different frameworks and you would need to convince me to adopt other values in order to change my evaluation.

Quote: But if you want to claim that "Slavery is absolutely wrong" you must also believe that "my values are absolutely true", do you believe your personal values are absolute?

No. I do not believe there is any such thing as absolute values or absolute morality in the sense that theists seem to mean it. I believe that my values are my values and I am open to somebody convincing me that adopting alternate values would be appropriate.

Quote:For example someone might have a different value system:
"I value human survival, therefore if slavery can serve the human survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it"

What's your thoughts on this?

I think their values are inferior to mine and their conclusions based on those values are also inferior. I also value survival but place it lower than individual rights not to have their existence sacrificed for others.

Quote:
Quote:it's the theists that have no actual basis for morality other than "might makes right".
I didn't get that part. A theist says "X is wrong because God says so" it's pretty consistent, isn't it?

I did not say their position was inconsistent. I said that they are simply basing their values on what they think a bigger, more powerful being says without actually evaluating the consequences of the acts in question.

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15-07-2017, 03:00 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:44 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  The difference between secular and religious morality is that with the former it's the reasoning behind the morality that matters; while with the latter, it's just about who is saying it.

Values are subjective, yes. I reject the notion of any kind of "correct" objective morality.

If we agree wellbeing (of all) is valuable, then it seems reasonable to conclude slavery is bad (especially considering the "veil of ignorance").

For people with other values, they will of course reach different conclusions. It's then a matter of debate, to see if anyone can convince others of anything. "God says so" is not much of an argument.
Quote:Values are subjective, yes. I reject the notion of any kind of "correct" objective morality.
So you actually think the proposition that "Slavery is wrong" can be a matter of debate, right? If that is the case, I don't have any objection.

Quote:"God says so" is not much of an argument.
Well, if the supposed God is real and consistent, it would be the best argument, or do you think there would still be a problem?
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15-07-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:"God says so" is not much of an argument.
Well, if the supposed God is real and consistent, it would be the best argument, or do you think there would still be a problem?

It would depend on the values the god was basing his moral commandments on. If it enjoys watching suffering, which seems probable given all the facts, then relying on his commands would be itself immoral by anybody who does not share that value.

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15-07-2017, 03:14 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:59 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:22 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I see, so you are relying on yourself for asserting moral propositions and consider yourself as the source of absolute moral values. I actually think this is a good position.

No, that's not what I said. I said the position was absolute within the values system. That is not at all the same as absolute values. If you do not value happiness, well-being, and personal freedom then we would be operating in different frameworks and you would need to convince me to adopt other values in order to change my evaluation.

Quote: But if you want to claim that "Slavery is absolutely wrong" you must also believe that "my values are absolutely true", do you believe your personal values are absolute?

No. I do not believe there is any such thing as absolute values or absolute morality in the sense that theists seem to mean it. I believe that my values are my values and I am open to somebody convincing me that adopting alternate values would be appropriate.

Quote:For example someone might have a different value system:
"I value human survival, therefore if slavery can serve the human survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it"

What's your thoughts on this?

I think their values are inferior to mine and their conclusions based on those values are also inferior. I also value survival but place it lower than individual rights not to have their existence sacrificed for others.

Quote:I didn't get that part. A theist says "X is wrong because God says so" it's pretty consistent, isn't it?

I did not say their position was inconsistent. I said that they are simply basing their values on what they think a bigger, more powerful being says without actually evaluating the consequences of the acts in question.

Quote:I think their values are inferior to mine and their conclusions based on those values are also inferior. I also value survival but place it lower than individual rights not to have their existence sacrificed for others.
Thank you for clarifying it. I think I understand what you mean. The last issue would be:
Do you think it makes any sense to talk about "Which value system is superior?", consider this scenario:

Me: I value survival, therefore if slavery serves survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it

You: I value dignity, therefore slavery is absolutely wrong.

Me: How do you prove dignity is a better value compared to survival?

You: Because of X (a new value)

Me: I think survival is superior because of Y (a new value)

You: How do you prove that Y is a better value than X?

You see, it goes on forever, a debate would be meaningless, unless we can find an absolute value which both of us can agree on it.

So I think it's ultimately an "opinion", nothing more. Something which cannot be defended and debated. Can you see it in a different light?
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15-07-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
PS: The survival of humans is not only something that isn't in any danger, we're actually so jam packed that it's detrimental. So to build morality based on (just) survival seems odd to me. If we were in any danger of dying out, it would make sense to include it as a factor. How that pertains to slavery, I'm not sure.

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15-07-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:14 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Thank you for clarifying it. I think I understand what you mean. The last issue would be:
Do you think it makes any sense to talk about "Which value system is superior?", consider this scenario:

Me: I value survival, therefore if slavery serves survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it

You: I value dignity, therefore slavery is absolutely wrong.

Me: How do you prove dignity is a better value compared to survival?

You: Because of X (a new value)

Me: I think survival is superior because of Y (a new value)

You: How do you prove that Y is a better value than X?

You see, it goes on forever, a debate would be meaningless, unless we can find an absolute value which both of us can agree on it.

So I think it's ultimately an "opinion", nothing more. Something which cannot be defended and debated. Can you see it in a different light?

It can be debated and it can be defended. But to assume that slavery is useful to survival you could easily make mistake - GULag slave labor was inefficient and therefore it was net loss for Soviet Union. Slave labor (essentially if called differently) of peasants during times of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth too was inefficient in the long run. Also consider eventual slave revolt and death toll they could cause - when one look closely survival may not mesh so good with enslaving people.

You also seem to forget that if slavery were to be practiced you could be enslaved too. So one does not need to be upstanding citizen to see downsides of slavery, healthy dose of pragmatism is enough.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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