Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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15-07-2017, 03:24 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:06 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 03:00 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Well, if the supposed God is real and consistent, it would be the best argument, or do you think there would still be a problem?

It would depend on the values the god was basing his moral commandments on. If it enjoys watching suffering, which seems probable given all the facts, then relying on his commands would be itself immoral by anybody who does not share that value.
For a supposedly true believer his/her God is the only value, there are no other values. "Thou art all".
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15-07-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:23 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 03:14 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Thank you for clarifying it. I think I understand what you mean. The last issue would be:
Do you think it makes any sense to talk about "Which value system is superior?", consider this scenario:

Me: I value survival, therefore if slavery serves survival in a time and place, it is absolutely right to practice it

You: I value dignity, therefore slavery is absolutely wrong.

Me: How do you prove dignity is a better value compared to survival?

You: Because of X (a new value)

Me: I think survival is superior because of Y (a new value)

You: How do you prove that Y is a better value than X?

You see, it goes on forever, a debate would be meaningless, unless we can find an absolute value which both of us can agree on it.

So I think it's ultimately an "opinion", nothing more. Something which cannot be defended and debated. Can you see it in a different light?

It can be debated and it can be defended. But to assume that slavery is useful to survival you could easily make mistake - GULag slave labor was inefficient and therefore it was net loss for Soviet Union. Slave labor (essentially if called differently) of peasants during times of Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth too was inefficient in the long run. Also consider eventual slave revolt and death toll they could cause - when one look closely survival may not mesh so good with enslaving people.

You also seem to forget that if slavery were to be practiced you could be enslaved too. So one does not need to be upstanding citizen to see downsides of slavery, healthy dose of pragmatism is enough.

The mere fact that slavery is almost disappeared can suggest that the evolution no longer needs it, it can no longer serve our survival.

The mere fact that slavery existed for very long periods suggests that it was a useful device for human survival at some periods in the history. If it was a "noise" in our evolution, it wouldn't have stayed there for so many years.

Quote:You also seem to forget that if slavery were to be practiced you could be enslaved too. So one does not need to be upstanding citizen to see downsides of slavery, healthy dose of pragmatism is enough.
I can imagine situations where being enslaved would be preferable for me. For example I might be in a society that I cannot survive in it. Because I have no skills to work, I have very weak mental abilities. No one is there to help me. I would prefer the be a slave for someone, so he gives me a warm house and food rather than starving and dying in the streets.
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15-07-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The mere fact that slavery is almost disappeared can suggest that the evolution no longer needs it, it can no longer serve our survival.

Or evolution had nothing to do with it and it is human morality that changed.

Quote:The mere fact that slavery existed for very long periods suggests that it was a useful device for human survival at some periods in the history. If it was a "noise" in our evolution, it wouldn't have stayed there for so many years.

Existence of slavery proves that it was profitable for some. Suggesting that it was useful for survival is something that you have to prove - I find no reason to believe in such.

Quote:I can imagine situations where being enslaved would be preferable for me. For example I might be in a society that I cannot survive in it. Because I have no skills to work, I have very weak mental abilities, and I don't know their language. No one is there to help me. I would prefer the be a slave for someone, so he gives me a warm house and food rather than starving and dying in the streets.

You have no skill and you're dumb and unable to speak local language. So why would someone bother with enslaving you? Slaves were supposed to be useful to owners not be a burden upon them.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-07-2017, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 03:58 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:41 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 03:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  The mere fact that slavery is almost disappeared can suggest that the evolution no longer needs it, it can no longer serve our survival.

Or evolution had nothing to do with it and it is human morality that changed.

Quote:The mere fact that slavery existed for very long periods suggests that it was a useful device for human survival at some periods in the history. If it was a "noise" in our evolution, it wouldn't have stayed there for so many years.

Existence of slavery proves that it was profitable for some. Suggesting that it was useful for survival is something that you have to prove - I find no reason to believe in such.

Quote:I can imagine situations where being enslaved would be preferable for me. For example I might be in a society that I cannot survive in it. Because I have no skills to work, I have very weak mental abilities, and I don't know their language. No one is there to help me. I would prefer the be a slave for someone, so he gives me a warm house and food rather than starving and dying in the streets.

You have no skill and you're dumb and unable to speak local language. So why would someone bother with enslaving you? Slaves were supposed to be useful to owners not be a burden upon them.


Quote:Existence of slavery proves that it was profitable for some. Suggesting that it was useful for survival is something that you have to prove - I find no reason to believe in such.
I think I get your point. But I don't see any duality here. Whatever we do is not separate from the patterns of evolution, every phenomenon concerning humans is also a natural phenomenon and hence part of the evolution. Isn't it? Therefore any major and essential phenomenon in our cultures in the history is also a major and essential part of evolution. I think I don't need to prove that.
In fact this kind of dualistic conception quite resembles the religious views. "God has given humans free will so they are special and different"

Quote:You have no skill and you're dumb and unable to speak local language. So why would someone bother with enslaving you? Slaves were supposed to be useful to owners not be a burden upon them.
Slaves were utilized for very rudimentary tasks. In fact many of the slaves used to be foreigners who are unable to communicate with language.
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15-07-2017, 03:59 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 04:02 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:48 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think I get your point. But I don't see any duality here.

Then you're blind. Slavery being profitable for some people does not equal slavery being good of survival of humans in general.

Quote:Whatever we do is not separate from the patterns of evolution, every phenomenon concerning humans is also a natural phenomenon and hence part of the evolution. Isn't it?

No. Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Try to play infantile word games with someone else.

Quote:In fact this kind of dualistic conception quite resembles the religious views. "God has given humans free will so they are special and different"

I fail to see how evolution is similar to gibberish about god and free will.

Quote:Slaves were utilized for very rudimentary tasks. If fact many of the slaves used to be foreigners who are unable to communicate with language.

Not only rudimentary, learn a little before speaking. But it matters not - being unskilled, dumb and unable to talk in local language would mean that you probably wouldn't be enslaved. Why bother?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-07-2017, 04:01 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
I read this thread, wrote a response, and scrapped it.

I think we have a troll at work trying to get someone to agree that slavery was/is a necessary thing.

Not going for that bait. Dodgy

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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15-07-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
The problem with allowing slavery is that one cannot be sure that one does not become a slave. And, slavery causes problems for non-slaves. How can a free man compete with slaves? This was a big problem in ancient Rome, and the American South. These are pragmatic reasons to oppose slavery, beyond general values.

Here in America, with the founding of America, the new system that declared all men were created equal clashed with the existence of slavery. The value systems that opposed slavery based on higher value systems than the primitive biblical systems that allow slavery eventually eliminated slavery.

Today, we find very few Americans that seriously would argue that slavery is allowable, much less desirable. A few Bible fanatics that take the OT seriously as God's laws. Or a few cruel radical organizations like ISIL and Boko Haram. The ugliness of organizations like that demonstrate why slavery is not an acceptable institution.

When I shake my ignore file, I can hear them buzzing!

Cheerful Charlie
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15-07-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:01 PM)Anjele Wrote:  I read this thread, wrote a response, and scrapped it.

I think we have a troll at work trying to get someone to agree that slavery was/is a necessary thing.

Trollishnes was established long ago - remember god/elephant thread?

Quote:Not going for that bait. Dodgy

Sensible approach.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-07-2017, 04:22 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:59 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 03:48 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think I get your point. But I don't see any duality here.

Then you're blind. Slavery being profitable for some people does not equal slavery being good of survival of humans in general.

Quote:Whatever we do is not separate from the patterns of evolution, every phenomenon concerning humans is also a natural phenomenon and hence part of the evolution. Isn't it?

No. Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations. Try to play infantile word games with someone else.

Quote:In fact this kind of dualistic conception quite resembles the religious views. "God has given humans free will so they are special and different"

I fail to see how evolution is similar to gibberish about god and free will.

Quote:Slaves were utilized for very rudimentary tasks. If fact many of the slaves used to be foreigners who are unable to communicate with language.

Not only rudimentary, learn a little before speaking. But it matters not - being unskilled, dumb and unable to talk in local language would mean that you probably wouldn't be enslaved. Why bother?

I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done in large scales are ultimately rooted in their fundamental and natural tendency which is shared among all organisms "The will to survive"

I see you are being annoyed, that is a red flag for continuing a discussion, so I prefer to end it at this point.

I appreciate everyone's time to give me the opportunity to express my thoughts and know about atheists' views concerning this issue.
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15-07-2017, 04:24 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:04 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Trollishnes was established long ago - remember god/elephant thread?

Missed that one...and I don't think I will go looking for it. Thanks for the warning.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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