Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
15-07-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:22 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done are ultimately rooted in their fundamental and natural tendency which is shared among all organisms "The will to survive"

[bolding mine]

Then it is clear that you're not looking for serious discussion. Suicide too is rooted in will to survive? Choosing dangerous jobs?

Quote:I see you are being annoyed, that is a red flag for continuing a discussion, so I prefer to end it at this point.

Lack of serious arguments is somewhat annoying. Same with lack of knowledge.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 04:30 PM
Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 02:35 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  That's something to talk about. You see for us to be able to infer some absolute moral propositions, we must rely on something absolute.

Why must we rely on something absolute? How do you know there is such a thing as absolute morality? If you assert that framing a god as the source of morality, doesn’t that put you in the position of proving the existence of your god beyond all doubt?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Rachel's post
15-07-2017, 04:36 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 04:44 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:26 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 04:22 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done are ultimately rooted in their fundamental and natural tendency which is shared among all organisms "The will to survive"

[bolding mine]

Then it is clear that you're not looking for serious discussion. Suicide too is rooted in will to survive? Choosing dangerous jobs?

Quote:I see you are being annoyed, that is a red flag for continuing a discussion, so I prefer to end it at this point.

Lack of serious arguments is somewhat annoying. Same with lack of knowledge.

Quote:Then it is clear that you're not looking for serious discussion. Suicide too is rooted in will to survive? Choosing dangerous jobs?
I actually edited that part:
I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done in large scales
Dolphins commit suicide too, but if you see the pattern of committing suicide among large population of dolphins, and it has been observed in long periods of time, you should conclude that this pattern of suicide is something serious, it is somehow helping them to survive, maybe old ones are killing themselves so the younger ones can have food?

Quote:Lack of serious arguments is somewhat annoying. Same with lack of knowledge.
I'm aware that my knowledge is very limited. But part of my motivation to be here is to learn more. If there is something I don't know, I'll be grateful if you give me the opportunity to learn about it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I actually edited that part:
I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done in large scales
Dolphins commit suicide too, but if you see the pattern of suicide among large population of dolphins, and it has been observed in long periods of time, you should conclude that this pattern of suicide is something serious, it is somehow helping them to survive, maybe old ones are killing themselves so the younger ones can have food?

Or what I find far more probable you're just trolling and now instead of god/elephant you go with survival as "troll word of the day".

If you claim that suicides are helpful to survival it is up to you to prove it.

Quote:I'm aware that my knowledge is very limited. But part of my motivation to be here is to learn more. If there is something I don't know, I'll be grateful if you give me the opportunity to learn about it.

You know shit about slavery as evidenced by your comment about slaves being used to complete very rudimentary tasks. There is also issue of thinking that slavery would be beneficial for you - do you really think that slave described like this: Because I have no skills to work, I have very weak mental abilities, and I don't know their language would be worth buying and keeping?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 04:51 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:30 PM)Rachel Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 02:35 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  That's something to talk about. You see for us to be able to infer some absolute moral propositions, we must rely on something absolute.

Why must we rely on something absolute? How do you know there is such a thing as absolute morality? If you assert that framing a god as the source of morality, doesn’t that put you in the position of proving the existence of your god beyond all doubt?

If you do not believe in absolute morality I think you have a proper position that can be defended. I have nothing to tell you. If you believe in absolute morality "Slavery is absolutely wrong", I'm suggesting that you will need to rely on some absolute entity, otherwise it would not be possible to assert such propositions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 04:55 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:43 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 04:36 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I actually edited that part:
I'm suggesting that everything that humans have done in large scales
Dolphins commit suicide too, but if you see the pattern of suicide among large population of dolphins, and it has been observed in long periods of time, you should conclude that this pattern of suicide is something serious, it is somehow helping them to survive, maybe old ones are killing themselves so the younger ones can have food?

Or what I find far more probable you're just trolling and now instead of god/elephant you go with survival as "troll word of the day".

If you claim that suicides are helpful to survival it is up to you to prove it.

Quote:I'm aware that my knowledge is very limited. But part of my motivation to be here is to learn more. If there is something I don't know, I'll be grateful if you give me the opportunity to learn about it.

You know shit about slavery as evidenced by your comment about slaves being used to complete very rudimentary tasks. There is also issue of thinking that slavery would be beneficial for you - do you really think that slave described like this: Because I have no skills to work, I have very weak mental abilities, and I don't know their language would be worth buying and keeping?

Quote:You know shit about slavery as evidenced by your comment about slaves being used to complete very rudimentary tasks
Ok, I will read more about it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 04:55 PM
Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:51 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 04:30 PM)Rachel Wrote:  Why must we rely on something absolute? How do you know there is such a thing as absolute morality? If you assert that framing a god as the source of morality, doesn’t that put you in the position of proving the existence of your god beyond all doubt?

If you do not believe in absolute morality I think you have a proper position that can be defended. I have nothing to tell you. If you believe in absolute morality "Slavery is absolutely wrong", I'm suggesting that you will need to rely on some absolute entity, otherwise it would not be possible to assert such propositions.


Truth be told, I don’t find that a satisfactory answer, nor indeed an answer at all. Your argument, such as it is, is an exercise in semantics and ultimately is meaningless. I don’t feel that moral arguments should hinge on definitions.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
15-07-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 03:14 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  So I think it's ultimately an "opinion", nothing more. Something which cannot be defended and debated. Can you see it in a different light?

I have already said that I do not believe there are absolutes but if you don't think that opinions can be debated or defended then why are you wasting people's time?

(15-07-2017 03:24 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  For a supposedly true believer his/her God is the only value, there are no other values. "Thou art all".

Which is pathetic at best. Anybody who doesn't value their own ability to reason and to form opinions and instead surrenders their mind to another has already given up what it means to be human.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like unfogged's post
15-07-2017, 05:09 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 05:16 PM by Vera.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 04:51 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  And yet If you believe in absolute morality "Slavery is absolutely wrong", I'm suggesting that you will need to rely on some absolute entity, otherwise it would not be possible to assert such propositions.

Why exactly do we need some absolutely entity again? Because we're like little children who need mommie and poppa to tell them what's right and what's wrong? Some of us prefer to lead our lives (the only one we'll ever have) like adults, not like snivelling, snotty-nosed children. But to each their own, I guess.

Quote:I have nothing to tell you.

And yet, here you are [Image: YaddaYadda.gif]

And just so you know, the whole "I'm here to learn" fake-humble schtick is wearing mighty thin.

[Image: 84499889.gif]

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vera's post
15-07-2017, 05:19 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(14-07-2017 07:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  What I would like to suggest then is simple. It is that the moral ideas which Christians find reasonable nowadays, will, in 50-100 years, seem totally absurd.
But of course! All you have to do is go back to a little before the middle of the 20th century to find many Christians decrying, e.g., listening to the radio, or going to movie theaters, or to dances, as immoral and corrupting. To see them decrying women's skirts shorter than ankle length. Or any number of things that even fundamentalist Christians now consider perfectly normal. Maybe not "spiritual" but not harmful or even suspect so long as you keep giving them money attending church, etc.
(14-07-2017 07:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  So, the only question I would like to ask is... why does humanist morality surpass God's morality? Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses, while accepting all of the good bits Yahweh orates that appeal to you?

Have you not created your own God?
I don't have to reject 100% of moral or ethical tenets just because they are proposed by Christians. Christian morality is not THAT different from general societal morality. After all, if it were, Christians would be doing things that society would consider illegal or at least in bad taste. That is the main reason Christian morality evolves, so as not to be so out of step with societal morality that it becomes impractical.

My morality is based on an assessment of benefits and harms of different actions. I've never suggested that Christians have it topsy-turvy or something. They use the same morality everyone else has, with some bolt-ons (and a couple of omissions). My objection to Christian morality is not primarily about its content, but about how it is arrived at.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes mordant's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: