Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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15-07-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:19 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-07-2017 07:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  What I would like to suggest then is simple. It is that the moral ideas which Christians find reasonable nowadays, will, in 50-100 years, seem totally absurd.
But of course! All you have to do is go back to a little before the middle of the 20th century to find many Christians decrying, e.g., listening to the radio, or going to movie theaters, or to dances, as immoral and corrupting. To see them decrying women's skirts shorter than ankle length. Or any number of things that even fundamentalist Christians now consider perfectly normal. Maybe not "spiritual" but not harmful or even suspect so long as you keep giving them money attending church, etc.
(14-07-2017 07:02 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  So, the only question I would like to ask is... why does humanist morality surpass God's morality? Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses, while accepting all of the good bits Yahweh orates that appeal to you?

Have you not created your own God?
I don't have to reject 100% of moral or ethical tenets just because they are proposed by Christians. Christian morality is not THAT different from general societal morality. After all, if it were, Christians would be doing things that society would consider illegal or at least in bad taste. That is the main reason Christian morality evolves, so as not to be so out of step with societal morality that it becomes impractical.

My morality is based on an assessment of benefits and harms of different actions. I've never suggested that Christians have it topsy-turvy or something. They use the same morality everyone else has, with some bolt-ons (and a couple of omissions). My objection to Christian morality is not primarily about its content, but about how it is arrived at.

So where do the Christians stand when it comes to banishing their children and other family members for not following the letter of the Christian laws...such as leaving belief behind or being LGBT?

Or the Christians who think they should have multiple wives and a zillion kids. Or who think that it's worldly, and thereby immoral, to want to be educated.

Much of Christian (cough, cough) morality is out of step and in bad taste.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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15-07-2017, 05:33 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:09 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 04:51 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  And yet If you believe in absolute morality "Slavery is absolutely wrong", I'm suggesting that you will need to rely on some absolute entity, otherwise it would not be possible to assert such propositions.

Why exactly do we need some absolutely entity again? Because we're like little children who need mommie and poppa to tell them what's right and what's wrong? Some of us prefer to lead our lives (the only one we'll ever have) like adults, not like snivelling, snotty-nosed children. But to each their own, I guess.

Quote:I have nothing to tell you.

And yet, here you are [Image: YaddaYadda.gif]

And just so you know, the whole "I'm here to learn" fake-humble schtick is wearing mighty thin.

[Image: 84499889.gif]

Quote:Because we're like little children who need mommie and poppa to tell them what's right and what's wrong?
That's not what I was trying to convey. If you want to rely on yourself, that's fine. But "opinions' is your best shot: "I have the opinion that slavery is wrong".
You should forget about the privilege to say "Slavery is absolutely/universally/eternally wrong" because the latter cannot be justified without relying on some absolute entity, the former is simply an opinion, it can be supported merely by a set of subjective moral values.

I understood that most people here do not believe in absolute morality and they say "In my value system slavery is wrong" they are open to discuss this proposition. They don't think it is "absolutely true".
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15-07-2017, 05:35 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:33 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 05:09 PM)Vera Wrote:  Why exactly do we need some absolutely entity again? Because we're like little children who need mommie and poppa to tell them what's right and what's wrong? Some of us prefer to lead our lives (the only one we'll ever have) like adults, not like snivelling, snotty-nosed children. But to each their own, I guess.


And yet, here you are [Image: YaddaYadda.gif]

And just so you know, the whole "I'm here to learn" fake-humble schtick is wearing mighty thin.

[Image: 84499889.gif]

Quote:Because we're like little children who need mommie and poppa to tell them what's right and what's wrong?
That's not what I was trying to convey. If you want to rely on yourself, that's fine. But "opinions' is your best shot: "I have the opinion that slavery is wrong".
You should forget about the privilege to say "Slavery is absolutely/universally/eternally wrong" because the latter cannot be justified without assuming some subjective values, the former is simply an opinion, it doesn't need any sort of justification.

I understood that most people here do not believe in absolute morality and they say "In my value system slavery is wrong" they are open to discuss this proposition. They don't think it is "absolutely true".

People aren't property. People aren't to be 'owned' by other people.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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15-07-2017, 05:44 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:33 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If you want to rely on yourself, that's fine.

Not ME, you numbnut. US, humanity, humankind, society. I thought you were here to learn, weren't you? Facepalm

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15-07-2017, 05:46 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 03:14 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  So I think it's ultimately an "opinion", nothing more. Something which cannot be defended and debated. Can you see it in a different light?

I have already said that I do not believe there are absolutes but if you don't think that opinions can be debated or defended then why are you wasting people's time?

(15-07-2017 03:24 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  For a supposedly true believer his/her God is the only value, there are no other values. "Thou art all".

Which is pathetic at best. Anybody who doesn't value their own ability to reason and to form opinions and instead surrenders their mind to another has already given up what it means to be human.

Quote:I have already said that I do not believe there are absolutes but if you don't think that opinions can be debated or defended then why are you wasting people's time?
I'm not discussing my opinion here. I think it would be a waste of time. I'm discussing that: "absolute propositions require absolute entities" this is not my personal opinion, this is based merely on logic.

Quote:Which is pathetic at best. Anybody who doesn't value their own ability to reason and to form opinions and instead surrenders their mind to another has already given up what it means to be human.
If we assume the supposed entity is perfect, again you think completely surrendering to it is pathetic? I'm just interested to know your personal opinion about it.
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15-07-2017, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 06:11 PM by unfogged.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:46 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'm not discussing my opinion here. I think it would be a waste of time. I'm discussing that: "absolute propositions require absolute entities" this is not my personal opinion, this is based merely on logic.

Well, since I don't believe that these "absolute propositions" exist and I don't know that anybody else here makes that claim you seem to be arguing against yourself.

ETA: if you want to make headway here, stop arguing against things that people are not claiming. When people say they don't accept any objective or absolute morality don't keep saying that we'd need an absolute entity to have absolute values. Also, understand that there is no atheist position on ethics or morality. Atheists are people who say "no" when asked "do you believe in a god?". They have all sorts of conflicting answers on just about every other question.

Quote:
Quote:Which is pathetic at best. Anybody who doesn't value their own ability to reason and to form opinions and instead surrenders their mind to another has already given up what it means to be human.
If we assume the supposed entity is perfect, again you think completely surrendering to it is pathetic? I'm just interested to know your personal opinion about it.

I see no point in assuming a supposed entity is anything except in science fiction stories.

Even if I thought a god existed, I can do no other than to evaluate propositions within my own ability to reason. Since I am not perfect I don't see any way to determine that another being IS perfect and since I have no evidence at all that any such being might exist in reality my choices are quite limited. My best option is to try to make the best decisions I can to make my life, and the lives of those I interact with, as good as possible. That seems to work for me so I find no need for anything else. YMMV

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15-07-2017, 06:09 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
double post...

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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15-07-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 06:01 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-07-2017 05:46 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I'm not discussing my opinion here. I think it would be a waste of time. I'm discussing that: "absolute propositions require absolute entities" this is not my personal opinion, this is based merely on logic.

Well, since I don't believe that these "absolute propositions" exist and I don't know that anybody else here makes that claim you seem to be arguing against yourself.

ETA: if you want to make headway here, stop arguing against things that people are not claiming. When people say they don't accept any objective or absolute morality don't keep saying that we'd need an absolute entity to have absolute values. Also, understand that there is no atheist position on ethics or morality. Atheists are people who say "no" when asked "do you believe in a god?". They have all sorts of conflicting answers on just about every other question.

Quote:If we assume the supposed entity is perfect, again you think completely surrendering to it is pathetic? I'm just interested to know your personal opinion about it.

I see no point in assuming a supposed entity is anything except in science fiction stories.

Even if I thought a god existed, I can do no other than to evaluate propositions within my own ability to reason. Since I am not perfect I don't see any way to determine that another being IS perfect and since I have no evidence at all that any such being might exist in reality my choices are quite limited. My best option is to try to make the best decisions I can to make my life, and the lives of those I interact with, as good as possible. That seems to work for me so I find no need for anything else. YMMV

Quote:if you want to make headway here, stop arguing against things that people are not claiming.
I take your advice.

Quote:Since I am not perfect I don't see any way to determine that another being IS perfect and since I have no evidence at all that any such being might exist in reality my choices are quite limited.
This is getting interesting for me, I don't want to expand on it too much, since it's off topic. But let's suppose I can prove to you (just suppose I can somehow prove to you) that a human being (not an invisible God) is merely "better" than you in all aspects, not perfect, just better. Would you choose to completely surrender to it or not? I'm merely interested in your personal opinion, I'm not intending to prove or demonstrate anything here.
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15-07-2017, 09:04 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Facepalm
Is it not completely obvious that slavery is morally wrong?
Why would anyone need a god to rule on the matter?
Why would anyone believe, just because a god permits it, that slavery is morally acceptable? (In my mind, any god that does so just proved they aren't a god at all!)

Never mind moral absolutes. There aren't any. But there also doesn't need to be. If you live on planet Earth and you don't understand that slavery is morally wrong, then perhaps you should be asking your god why in hell he didn't give you a brain or a heart... or better yet, just realize there is no god.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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15-07-2017, 10:22 PM (This post was last modified: 15-07-2017 10:50 PM by Cosmo.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Nosferatu323 Wrote:Reading through the posts, it's interesting for me how atheists hold moral positions similar to theists.

How can you compare a secular morality with the backwater morality of desert herdsmen?

This seems like a false equivalency. Secularists generally find the moral opinions of fundamentalist believers infuriating.

Quote:When you ask a theist "Why X is wrong?" he/she answers: "because God says so"

This is another idea I take issue with. Where do theists get off thinking that God's morality is objective? Why does its 'objectivity' make it good, when humans have clearly concocted more inclusive, peaceful, freedom and prosperity inducing ideas than any invisible moral loon ever did?

[Image: 1skm83.jpg]

Just because he is supposedly invisible and everywhere does not make his morality objective. It is still God's subjective opinion. I care not about his substance, or lack thereof. The fact that theists believe that God should be able to impose his ideas onto other people is not only ill-founded, but malicious. They have made their God into a tyrant without realizing. Do what I say, or I'll burn you.

PS I love you.

Quote:I have the impression that you guys think "Slavery is universally/eternally/absolutely wrong" if this is the case, I'd be interested to know your thoughts about how such propositions can be justified within the atheist's worldview?

Nope. No atheist would talk about an objective moral standard. Your brain is a machine that picks out things that are beneficial around you, and things that are not. It can be tricked by drugs, bad life experiences, and bad ideas, but that's one of the many things it does. Morality has evolved just like us.

Szuchow Wrote:No. Evolution is change in the heritable characteristics of biological populations over successive generations.

I think applying the word evolution to certain non biological phenomena can be useful metaphorically.

mordant Wrote:But of course! All you have to do is go back to a little before the middle of the 20th century to find many Christians decrying, e.g., listening to the radio, or going to movie theaters, or to dances, as immoral and corrupting. To see them decrying women's skirts shorter than ankle length. Or any number of things that even fundamentalist Christians now consider perfectly normal. Maybe not "spiritual" but not harmful or even suspect so long as you keep giving them money attending church, etc.

Laugh out load

How quickly would a small evangelical church change its tune about homosexuality if a gay millionaire randomly decided he want to join their congregation.

(15-07-2017 09:04 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Facepalm
Is it not completely obvious that slavery is morally wrong?
Why would anyone need a god to rule on the matter?
Why would anyone believe, just because a god permits it, that slavery is morally acceptable? (In my mind, any god that does so just proved they aren't a god at all!)

Never mind moral absolutes. There aren't any. But there also doesn't need to be. If you live on planet Earth and you don't understand that slavery is morally wrong, then perhaps you should be asking your god why in hell he didn't give you a brain or a heart... or better yet, just realize there is no god.

You would think.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

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