Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-07-2017, 08:18 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 07:51 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 07:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  What if your agency is not something real? Would still want to stick to it even if you know it's delusional?
There are actually scientific evidences that suggest our sense of agency is fake, the decisions are being made slightly before we consciously make those decisions.
So if we assume there is no agency, would you want to keep it? If it is the case, isn't it just how a theist want to keep his/her God even if it goes agains the evidences?

If I have no agency, then I have nothing to surrender, in that regard. Nor the agency to decide (this is the free will fallacy I started a thread on today).

I do believe my subconcious is running the show, and that what appears to be my conscious decisions really aren't. But my subconscious is still me, as far as I'm anything at all.

Whether I have agency or not, I'd rather feel like I'm making my own decisions than have them made for me by another agency. That would be horrible, and pointless too. Something vastly more powerful than me doesn't need me. But who knows, maybe it's already happened and it just makes me feel like I'm in control. Fuck all I can do, if I have no agency!

Quote:If I have no agency, then I have nothing to surrender, in that regard. Nor the agency to decide
Good answer, Thanks for the exchange of thoughts, hope your subconscious is running a good show for you! Thumbsup
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes nosferatu323's post
16-07-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
Thanks! No problem, thank you too Smile

Well, it's doing the best it can in the circumstances I think. Truth be told I'd rather it just shut off the show so I didn't have to experience anything, but I could still "be there" for everyone else. But that's the mind of a depressive.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Robvalue's post
16-07-2017, 08:23 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 07:20 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 07:08 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  What if your agency is not something real? Would still want to stick to it even if you know it's delusional?
There are actually scientific evidences that suggest our sense of agency is fake, the decisions are being made slightly before we consciously make those decisions.

That doesn't make agency a delusion. I don't regard the conscious mind as the entirety of the self; the parts of the brain that work below the level of conscious thought are still me.

Quote:So if we assume there is no agency, would you want to keep it? If it is the case, isn't it just how a theist want to keep his/her God even if it goes agains the evidences?

I don't buy that assumption. I have agency because that is essentially a tautology. The theist may be denying their agency but is still making a decision to do that.

Quote: I have agency because that is essentially a tautology. The theist may be denying their agency but is still making a decision to do that.
I see, but are you aware that tautologies are essentially nothing? They cannot inform us about anything. I can't see how a "rational" man keeps these tautologies all the time in his mind, it will be just a burden. "I'm doing this", "I'm doing that". I think a rational mind would drop the persistent and unnecessary tautology, so his conscious thoughts no longer involves a doer, an agent. What's your thoughts on this?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 08:29 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 08:21 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Thanks! No problem, thank you too Smile

Well, it's doing the best it can in the circumstances I think. Truth be told I'd rather it just shut off the show so I didn't have to experience anything, but I could still "be there" for everyone else. But that's the mind of a depressive.
As a theist, I'm fascinated to know that there are atheists who share my worldview.
I don't think that's the mind of a depressive, try dropping the label and I guess it will be fine. Maybe that's just our natural state...In case you have agency though Big Grin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 08:39 AM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 07:10 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 06:14 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  But that's the main goal of all religions. The single ultimate goal that connects all religions is "the cessation of the individual self". I think God is merely a device that is used in most religions to help the individual through the path of getting rid of the individual self which is the ultimate cause of suffering.

Are you saying that the individual self is the ultimate cause of suffering or that getting rid of the self is the cause? I don't know that I'd agree with either statement but it is not clear which you mean.

Quote:You might ask what does "cessation of individual self" means, I can't explain that but you seem to have some ideas about what it means, since you correctly described that the individual self ceases once the mind is silenced.

It has always been pretty self-evident to me.

Quote:It's interesting for me how the ultimate desire of religious seekers is quite contrary to what you seem to desire. It seems human beings are not that much the same. I was always wondering why is the division between human beings, it seems there IS a real division. Some seek the individual self, some seek releasing from the individual self, the two are quite contrary.

Theists are often indoctrinated from an early age to believe that they are corrupt and that they can't trust their own instincts. It is perhaps the most insidious facet of religion in that it trains people to willingly submit to authority without question.

Quote:Are you saying that the individual self is the ultimate cause of suffering or that getting rid of the self is the cause? I don't know that I'd agree with either statement but it is not clear which you mean.
I meant the individual self is the cause of all suffering. The individual self and the sufferer are the same entity, once the individual self is removed the sufferer is also removed. I think it's pretty self evident.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 08:29 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 08:21 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Thanks! No problem, thank you too Smile

Well, it's doing the best it can in the circumstances I think. Truth be told I'd rather it just shut off the show so I didn't have to experience anything, but I could still "be there" for everyone else. But that's the mind of a depressive.
As a theist, I'm fascinated to know that there are atheists who share my worldview.
I don't think that's the mind of a depressive, try dropping the label and I guess it will be fine. Maybe that's just our natural state...In case you have agency though Big Grin

I don't think most people feel that way! I really hope they don't anyway.

It brings up an interesting (if pointless) question: what would be the morality of turning off my own experiences? From everyone else's point of view, nothing would change. I'd be the same me, and would live the same life. It's just I wouldn't be "in there" anymore.

I have deceived them, but they would never know. It would be for the entirely selfish reason that I'm sick of the experience.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 08:23 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote: I have agency because that is essentially a tautology. The theist may be denying their agency but is still making a decision to do that.
I see, but are you aware that tautologies are essentially nothing? They cannot inform us about anything. I can't see how a "rational" man keeps these tautologies all the time in his mind, it will be just a burden. "I'm doing this", "I'm doing that".

I have no idea what you are on about. Saying "I have agency" is a tautology because for there to be an "I" there has to be an actor. I never claimed that it would teach us anything and I don't keep them all in my mind.

Quote:I think a rational mind would drop the persistent and unnecessary tautology, so his conscious thoughts no longer involves a doer, an agent. What's your thoughts on this?

You can't have conscious thought without an agent.

(16-07-2017 08:31 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I meant the individual self is the cause of all suffering. The individual self and the sufferer are the same entity, once the individual self is removed the sufferer is also removed. I think it's pretty self evident.

The self and the sufferer may be the same but that doesn't make the self is the cause of suffering. Eliminating the sufferer may eliminate the suffering but would do nothing to remove the cause of the suffering. That's like saying the water is the cause of the boiling.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 10:53 AM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 10:11 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I don't think most people feel that way! I really hope they don't anyway.

It brings up an interesting (if pointless) question: what would be the morality of turning off my own experiences? From everyone else's point of view, nothing would change. I'd be the same me, and would live the same life. It's just I wouldn't be "in there" anymore.

I have deceived them, but they would never know. It would be for the entirely selfish reason that I'm sick of the experience.

Sounds like Zombies and Zimboes

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 12:05 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 10:49 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 08:23 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I see, but are you aware that tautologies are essentially nothing? They cannot inform us about anything. I can't see how a "rational" man keeps these tautologies all the time in his mind, it will be just a burden. "I'm doing this", "I'm doing that".

I have no idea what you are on about. Saying "I have agency" is a tautology because for there to be an "I" there has to be an actor. I never claimed that it would teach us anything and I don't keep them all in my mind.

Quote:I think a rational mind would drop the persistent and unnecessary tautology, so his conscious thoughts no longer involves a doer, an agent. What's your thoughts on this?

You can't have conscious thought without an agent.

(16-07-2017 08:31 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I meant the individual self is the cause of all suffering. The individual self and the sufferer are the same entity, once the individual self is removed the sufferer is also removed. I think it's pretty self evident.

The self and the sufferer may be the same but that doesn't make the self is the cause of suffering. Eliminating the sufferer may eliminate the suffering but would do nothing to remove the cause of the suffering. That's like saying the water is the cause of the boiling.

Quote:I have no idea what you are on about. Saying "I have agency" is a tautology because for there to be an "I" there has to be an actor. I never claimed that it would teach us anything and I don't keep them all in my mind.
True.

Quote:You can't have conscious thought without an agent.
True.

Quote:The self and the sufferer may be the same but that doesn't make the self is the cause of suffering. Eliminating the sufferer may eliminate the suffering but would do nothing to remove the cause of the suffering. That's like saying the water is the cause of the boiling.
Ok, you do not eliminate the cause of suffering. You just pay attention to the fact that there is no such thing as the individual self, it's just a bunch of thoughts, once the thoughts are removed the individual self disappears. Once you realize this you also realize that there is no sufferer and hence no suffering. Something that never existed cannot be eliminated. Something that does not exist cannot have a cause.

I think I don't have any point to make, but the discussion is nevertheless interesting for me. So I'll continue anyway.

Let's suppose that the human brain can work in a drastically different mode, in which no conscious thought arises in it, similar to dreamless sleep. But the actions of the body are being performed similar to a normal human. The signals are processed in a way that no conscious thought is raised. It's essentially indistinguishable from a normal human being, except that brain waves are considerably different. The subjective experience is like anyone else, there are just no thoughts.
What's your thoughts on this? Do you think such an experience is consistent?

On a side note, there are actually evidences that the brain waves of those individuals who are considered to be "enlightened" and such is considerably different. But let's not get into that zone, let's suppose such a "different mode of experience" exists.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2017, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 12:08 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 10:11 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 08:29 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  As a theist, I'm fascinated to know that there are atheists who share my worldview.
I don't think that's the mind of a depressive, try dropping the label and I guess it will be fine. Maybe that's just our natural state...In case you have agency though Big Grin

I don't think most people feel that way! I really hope they don't anyway.

It brings up an interesting (if pointless) question: what would be the morality of turning off my own experiences? From everyone else's point of view, nothing would change. I'd be the same me, and would live the same life. It's just I wouldn't be "in there" anymore.

I have deceived them, but they would never know. It would be for the entirely selfish reason that I'm sick of the experience.

Quote:I don't think most people feel that way! I really hope they don't anyway.
I don't think it's that bad. You can look at it as some sort of depression. But I don't see it like that. I also enjoy thinking about cessation of the conscious experience and I really enjoy thinking about it. I don't think it's something sad. It's all up to you to see it as something sad or depressive or not.

Quote:what would be the morality of turning off my own experiences? From everyone else's point of view, nothing would change. I'd be the same me, and would live the same life. It's just I wouldn't be "in there" anymore.
You might be interested to read about the concept of Voidness or Emptiness in Buddhism. In fact the ultimate quest of a Buddhist is to realize the voidness of beings. To realize that there is nothing "inside" the beings, there never was. They are just what they are observed to be. The fact that individuals report some sort of "experience of being in the body" is simply their delusion and is due to their ignorance of their own nature.

If this is true, if you can turn off your conscious experience by practicing some meditation for example, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, you've just got rid of the delusion, most likely your body will be a lot more useful for others, since the delusions won't be a handicap anymore. So maybe it's the most ethical thing you can do? lol.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: