Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
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16-07-2017, 12:22 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 11:21 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think I don't have any point to make,

We agree there

Quote: but the discussion is nevertheless interesting for me. So I'll continue anyway.

It was mildly interesting until you branched off into this utter nonsense about the cause of suffering not existing if you eliminate the sufferer.

Quote:Let's suppose that the human brain can work in a drastically different mode, ...

Let's not. I'm interested in what is, not what theists imagine might be.

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16-07-2017, 12:23 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 12:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 11:21 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think I don't have any point to make,

We agree there

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16-07-2017, 12:54 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 01:38 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 12:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 11:21 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  I think I don't have any point to make,

We agree there

Quote: but the discussion is nevertheless interesting for me. So I'll continue anyway.

It was mildly interesting until you branched off into this utter nonsense about the cause of suffering not existing if you eliminate the sufferer.

Quote:Let's suppose that the human brain can work in a drastically different mode, ...

Let's not. I'm interested in what is, not what theists imagine might be.

Quote:It was mildly interesting until you branched off into this utter nonsense about the cause of suffering not existing if you eliminate the sufferer.
I tried to clarify this when you mentioned the water and boiling.
I'm suggesting that suffering is a thought pattern, it does not have any independent existence apart from the thoughts.
I'm interested to know why you think it's utter nonsense, if you care to explain.

Quote:Let's not. I'm interested in what is, not what theists imagine might be.
Fair enough, it has nothing to do with theists though. Alternative modes of cognition is something that appears in scientific studies, specially in the study of consciousness during different stages of sleep. Scientists sometimes refer to the reports of the practitioners of meditation in formation of their speculations and theories. I don't really think it's something entirely in the realm of fantasy.
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16-07-2017, 12:55 PM
Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 10:22 PM)Cosmo Wrote:  This is another idea I take issue with. Where do theists get off thinking that God's morality is objective?

If there were such a thing as objective morality, it would have to apply to the deity too. Objective morality would exist outside intelligence in order to be objective.

The problem with objective morality is when it applies to everyone except the imaginary originator if they morality, is that the deity could change its mind about what is moral and what is not. In that case the morality is subjective and not objective.
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16-07-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(15-07-2017 05:59 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Humanist morality is certainly more useful and practical in secular countries in the 21st century. But I don't know what do you mean by "surpassing".
Slavery might have been an inseparable part of the human societies at some points in the history, therefore certain rules were needed for this practice. I think the fact that the Bible mentions a set of rules for this practice doesn't make it immoral.

Quote:Why are you not readily willing to accept all of the moral absurdity that Yahweh poses
If you consider the context, you will notice that the morality in the Bible is adaptive with the society in which it was revealed and one can see it as "useful" when considering the evolution of morality during that specific period. So I don't think the morality in the Bible is absurd.

I think if morality in the Bible resembled the current humanist morality it would have been absurd, since the current humanist morality would have been impractical and useless concerning the social structures and belief systems of people in 2000 years ago.

I think there are good arguments concerning the inconsistencies and unscientific assertions in the Bible, and I personally think there are many things wrong with the Bible. But I don't think arguments about morality can point to the God of Christianity being delusional.

So you honestly think the creator of the universe can't declare slavery is wrong because it was an 'accepted practice" That makes absolutely no sense, because by that logic god wouldn't declare himself the "one and only god" because worshipping other gods was "accepted practice".

The reason that is obvious why there are rules governing slavery and other terrible practices of the time; because the bible is written by men and made up by men, not any kind of deity.
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16-07-2017, 01:32 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 01:36 PM by mordant.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 11:32 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If this is true, if you can turn off your conscious experience by practicing some meditation for example, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, you've just got rid of the delusion, most likely your body will be a lot more useful for others, since the delusions won't be a handicap anymore. So maybe it's the most ethical thing you can do? lol.
You haven't gotten "rid" of anything. There has always been a practical problem in Buddhism that you can only achieve freedom from suffering (by a certain definition of "freedom") by self-abnegation on the meditation mat. This is very limited as most people do need to earn a living and maintain relationships and so forth to function in the world. As the saying goes: Before enlightenment, do the laundry. After enlightenment, do the laundry. Or as non-Buddhists sometimes say, "wherever you go, there you are". And there everyone else is, too.

The value in Buddhism to my mind is that it helps one to detach from particular outcomes and provides the potential for a more realistic view of life based on an understanding of impermanence. Also, it helps one shift the emphasis from doing, to being. These are helpful things. Just not all THAT helpful. I can't erase past experiences, unsee things I've seen, resurrect what I've lost, or be fully understood by others or even by myself. Nor can I entirely escape my expectations (mine, or certainly not that of others). No amount of meditation (Eastern) or medication (Western) gets at those issues. Because I'm simply describing the human condition, what it is like to be human. You know -- that thing we are obliged to keep on doing after we apply all our bullshit rationalizations and contrived workarounds.
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16-07-2017, 01:52 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 01:32 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 11:32 AM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If this is true, if you can turn off your conscious experience by practicing some meditation for example, I don't think there is anything wrong with it, you've just got rid of the delusion, most likely your body will be a lot more useful for others, since the delusions won't be a handicap anymore. So maybe it's the most ethical thing you can do? lol.
You haven't gotten "rid" of anything. There has always been a practical problem in Buddhism that you can only achieve freedom from suffering (by a certain definition of "freedom") by self-abnegation on the meditation mat. This is very limited as most people do need to earn a living and maintain relationships and so forth to function in the world. As the saying goes: Before enlightenment, do the laundry. After enlightenment, do the laundry. Or as non-Buddhists sometimes say, "wherever you go, there you are". And there everyone else is, too.

The value in Buddhism to my mind is that it helps one to detach from particular outcomes and provides the potential for a more realistic view of life based on an understanding of impermanence. Also, it helps one shift the emphasis from doing, to being. These are helpful things. Just not all THAT helpful. I can't erase past experiences, unsee things I've seen, resurrect what I've lost, or be fully understood by others or even by myself. Nor can I entirely escape my expectations (mine, or certainly not that of others). No amount of meditation (Eastern) or medication (Western) gets at those issues. Because I'm simply describing the human condition, what it is like to be human. You know -- that thing we are obliged to keep on doing after we apply all our bullshit rationalizations and contrived workarounds.


Quote:There has always been a practical problem in Buddhism that you can only achieve freedom from suffering (by a certain definition of "freedom") by self-abnegation on the meditation mat.
Not really, in fact there are many schools who suggest not denouncing from the everyday life, instead one should apply the meditation techniques in his/her everyday life. They suggest denouncing from the everyday life can be even harmful, since it gives the false impression that the stillness of mind is necessarily related to the stillness of the body. Which is not the case.

Quote:The value in Buddhism to my mind is that it helps one to detach from particular outcomes and provides the potential for a more realistic view of life based on an understanding of impermanence. Also, it helps one shift the emphasis from doing, to being. These are helpful things.
If you have experienced these things personally, don't you think it's sensible to assume that these outcomes will be more effective and more potent with prolonged practice? Don't you think that with enough persistence these qualities can be so intense that they would result in a drastically different experience?
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16-07-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 01:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:There has always been a practical problem in Buddhism that you can only achieve freedom from suffering (by a certain definition of "freedom") by self-abnegation on the meditation mat.
Not really, in fact there are many schools who suggest not denouncing from the everyday life, instead one should apply the meditation techniques in his/her everyday life. They suggest denouncing from the everyday life can be even harmful, since it gives the false impression that the stillness of mind is necessarily related to the stillness of the body. Which is not the case.
I was referring to the fact that the benefits of meditation require that one meditate, and the benefits of living require that one do other things. Meditation is not a state that is conducive to fulfilling one's roles in human relationships, such as being someone's spouse or employee.
(16-07-2017 01:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  
Quote:The value in Buddhism to my mind is that it helps one to detach from particular outcomes and provides the potential for a more realistic view of life based on an understanding of impermanence. Also, it helps one shift the emphasis from doing, to being. These are helpful things.
If you have experienced these things personally, don't you think it's sensible to assume that these outcomes will be more effective and more potent with prolonged practice? Don't you think that with enough persistence these qualities can be so intense that they would result in a drastically different experience?
No. Assuming that more is better is not always correct. I have found some core aspects of Buddhist understanding to be among those things that help improve my quality of life by a few percentage points. I have not seen any reason to go deeper in the hopes of it being a game changer, particularly when my experience of those who have done so is not very impressive. The local monastery is indifferently run, for example, which I suspect is a direct result of taking indifference to particular outcomes (such as people showing up for events that are actually occurring and for web sites to reflect what is actually going on) too far. One hears of sexual scandals and exploitation of acolytes in Buddhism with the same frequency as in any other religion. And the silly cruft of religious dogma muddies the waters just like in any other religion.
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16-07-2017, 02:39 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 02:44 PM by nosferatu323.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 02:05 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 01:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  Not really, in fact there are many schools who suggest not denouncing from the everyday life, instead one should apply the meditation techniques in his/her everyday life. They suggest denouncing from the everyday life can be even harmful, since it gives the false impression that the stillness of mind is necessarily related to the stillness of the body. Which is not the case.
I was referring to the fact that the benefits of meditation require that one meditate, and the benefits of living require that one do other things. Meditation is not a state that is conducive to fulfilling one's roles in human relationships, such as being someone's spouse or employee.
(16-07-2017 01:52 PM)nosferatu323 Wrote:  If you have experienced these things personally, don't you think it's sensible to assume that these outcomes will be more effective and more potent with prolonged practice? Don't you think that with enough persistence these qualities can be so intense that they would result in a drastically different experience?
No. Assuming that more is better is not always correct. I have found some core aspects of Buddhist understanding to be among those things that help improve my quality of life by a few percentage points. I have not seen any reason to go deeper in the hopes of it being a game changer, particularly when my experience of those who have done so is not very impressive. The local monastery is indifferently run, for example, which I suspect is a direct result of taking indifference to particular outcomes (such as people showing up for events that are actually occurring and for web sites to reflect what is actually going on) too far. One hears of sexual scandals and exploitation of acolytes in Buddhism with the same frequency as in any other religion. And the silly cruft of religious dogma muddies the waters just like in any other religion.
I think I got your point about more is not always better and I think you are being right. That made me think about it. Thanks for that Smile

Quote:Meditation is not a state that is conducive to fulfilling one's roles in human relationships, such as being someone's spouse or employee.
I think meditation is not something that goes against any practice or activity like human relationships. You can talk to your child in be in a state of meditation at the same time. It comes and goes in the initial attempts, but with enough persistence the state of meditation becomes a second nature, it does not interrupt any other activities.
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16-07-2017, 03:29 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2017 03:46 PM by Vera.)
RE: Theists, Stop pretending you have a moral high ground.
(16-07-2017 12:23 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(16-07-2017 12:22 PM)unfogged Wrote:  We agree there

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