Theists and BS assumptions about science
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26-04-2016, 08:52 AM
Theists and BS assumptions about science
In this post, a theist (ol' TommyBoy) made an asinine statement about science that is pretty widely echoed by theists in general.

The explicit statements from genericTheist#1,964,890,234:
"I think people inclined to be atheists are drawn to study the sciences. That there's perhaps some parallel here between why folks on the autistic spectrum are drawn to these fields, and atheists in general.

It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."



My reply:

Bull and shit. More assertion on your part, with absolutely no reason to believe it other than your desire to.

Why are more well educated people more likely to be atheist (or at the very least, non-religious or less religious)? The straightforward and obvious answer is that reality has a bias towards rational and logical conclusions, neither of which describes religion. But you assert that it has to do with "one's chosen identity," implying that scientists assign themselves the label of atheist so as to feel and be seen as included in the scientific community. Which is a complete load of bullshit. Why? Here, let me list the reasons:
1) it assumes that there is a religious test of some sort for scientists. There isn't. Not at the BA/BS level, or the MS/MA, or MD/PhD.
2) it assumes science cares about religion in the first place. This ignorance indicates you've never taken a science course taught by a scientist.
3) it implies that "atheism" and science are intrinsically linked such that being included as a scientist requires one be less religious or non-religious or an atheist/agnostic. Complete and utter bullshit. While it is true that a larger proportion of the population of scientists are atheist/non-religious than the general population, this does not indicate anything about the field of science as a whole with regard to why those people are atheist/non-religious. More educated tends to correlate with less religious, and scientists are among the most well educated. Fin



You keep injecting your personal bias into these asinine assumptions. You take simple observations and add in complex bullshit and conspiracy.





The point of this thread is to highlight that theists extrapolate complex conspiracies from simple observations, with exactly 0 evidence to support it. Drinking Beverage

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26-04-2016, 09:09 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ...
The point of this thread is to highlight that theists extrapolate complex conspiracies from simple observations, with exactly 0 evidence to support it. Drinking Beverage

I think that your hypothesis is a non-starter because extrapolation is very evidently a human condition (intrinsic pattern-recognition producing false positives) rather than exclusively a theistic condition.

(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ...
The explicit statements from genericTheist#1,964,890,234:
"I think people inclined to be atheists are drawn to study the sciences. That there's perhaps some parallel here between why folks on the autistic spectrum are drawn to these fields, and atheists in general.

It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

...

"be recognized by others as" fails on two counts in relation to "folks on the autistic spectrum":
1. Syntactically.
2. Of the 'triad of impairments', there is often little awareness or concern with respect to how one is regarded by others.

[Image: 360px-Triad_of_impairments.jpg]

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26-04-2016, 09:16 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 09:09 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ...
The point of this thread is to highlight that theists extrapolate complex conspiracies from simple observations, with exactly 0 evidence to support it. Drinking Beverage

I think that your hypothesis is a non-starter because extrapolation is very evidently a human condition (intrinsic pattern-recognition producing false positives) rather than exclusively a theistic condition.

I think your objection is a non-starter because he didn't condemn extrapolation in general, just the kind with no evidence. Drinking Beverage

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26-04-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
I think it's simply the need for evidence or at least logical explanations, and a propensity towards natural curiosity instead of an inherent capacity for believing concepts on "faith" that propels people towards science and atheism and away from religion. Religion values ignorance and blind trust, science rebukes both. It can't get any simpler than that.
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26-04-2016, 09:22 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 09:09 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I think that your hypothesis is a non-starter because extrapolation is very evidently a human condition (intrinsic pattern-recognition producing false positives) rather than exclusively a theistic condition.

I think your objection is a non-starter because he didn't condemn extrapolation in general, just the kind with no evidence. Drinking Beverage

Nor did I.

Your objection to the objection is denied.

Drinking Beverage

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26-04-2016, 09:54 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 09:22 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 09:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think your objection is a non-starter because he didn't condemn extrapolation in general, just the kind with no evidence. Drinking Beverage

Nor did I.

Your objection to the objection is denied.

Drinking Beverage

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26-04-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  implying that scientists assign themselves the label of atheist so as to feel and be seen as included in the scientific community.

I thought he was saying the reverse; that atheists will align themselves with the concept of science so as to be perceived as intelligent.
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26-04-2016, 11:31 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 10:55 AM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  implying that scientists assign themselves the label of atheist so as to feel and be seen as included in the scientific community.

I thought he was saying the reverse; that atheists will align themselves with the concept of science so as to be perceived as intelligent.

That isn't the opposite. That is consistent with my statement.

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26-04-2016, 11:32 AM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 09:09 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ...
The point of this thread is to highlight that theists extrapolate complex conspiracies from simple observations, with exactly 0 evidence to support it. Drinking Beverage

I think that your hypothesis is a non-starter because extrapolation is very evidently a human condition (intrinsic pattern-recognition producing false positives) rather than exclusively a theistic condition.

(26-04-2016 08:52 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  ...
The explicit statements from genericTheist#1,964,890,234:
"I think people inclined to be atheists are drawn to study the sciences. That there's perhaps some parallel here between why folks on the autistic spectrum are drawn to these fields, and atheists in general.

It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

...

"be recognized by others as" fails on two counts in relation to "folks on the autistic spectrum":
1. Syntactically.
2. Of the 'triad of impairments', there is often little awareness or concern with respect to how one is regarded by others.

[Image: 360px-Triad_of_impairments.jpg]

As Chas pointed out, my point is to use a specific example (ol' TommyBoy) of the misconceptions between correlation and causation to highlight a trend that seems very common among theists.

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26-04-2016, 12:16 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2016 12:32 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
Let's just address your assumptions about what I said real quick:

Quote:1) it assumes that there is a religious test of some sort for scientists. There isn't. Not at the BA/BS level, or the MS/MA, or MD/PhD.

No, I don't assume there is some religious test for some sorts of scientists, or any real barrier preventing religious people from being scientists, or majoring in it.

Quote:2.) it assumes science cares about religion in the first place. This ignorance indicates you've never taken a science course taught by a scientist.

No, I don't think scientists or science in general cares much about religion.

Quote:3) it implies that "atheism" and science are intrinsically linked such that being included as a scientist requires one be less religious or non-religious or an atheist/agnostic.

No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science.

Quote:More educated tends to correlate with less religious, and scientists are among the most well educated.

If we're referring to the non-religious population, the nones more so than atheists, that correlation doesn't really exist.

In fact the disparities are different depending on your field. Close to 80% of medical doctors believe in God, while its about half of all scientist. Women in America tend to be better educated than men, but yet only make up about 30% of atheists.

And if you're uneducated, you're more likely to disassociate with religion more so now than ever. The trends don't particularly support the view that education, and non- religiousness go hand in hand.

"The core finding is that the association between graduating from college and religious disaffiliation has changed drastically across generations," said Philip Schwadel, the study's author and a professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. For people who were born in the 1920s and '30s, the godless-college-grad stereotype is somewhat true: They were twice as likely as their uneducated peers to be religionless, not identifying with a particular church or synagogue or other religious institution.

But over time, that trend changed. "For those people who were born in the 1960s, there’s really no difference between the college-educated and the non-college-educated in terms of their likelihood of disaffiliating from religion," Schwadel said. "And for those born in the 1970s, it’s actually the non-college-educated who are relatively likely to disaffiliate."

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/arc...ty/375950/

And if we're speaking of religious participation, like church attendance, and not stay at home believer type, the steepest declines in the last four decades in church attendance among whites at least, is among the poor, while the church attendance by higher income whites with at least a bachelors degree has barely changed in that same time period from 50% to 46%.

"While religious service attendance has decreased for all white Americans since the early 1970s, the rate of decline has been more than twice as high for less educated, lower and lower-middle class whites compared to more educated and presumably more affluent whites, according to a study presented Saturday at the annual meeting of the American Sociological Association in Las Vegas." [...]

"Church attendance by higher-income whites with at least a bachelor’s degree barely dipped, from 50 percent to 46 percent."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44192469/ns/he...x-qPLyCzww

All of this to say the relationship between religion, non-religion, and education, is far more complex, and not particularly supportive of the notion that education and lack of religiousness go hand in hand.

But there is steep relationship between self-identifying atheists, and scientist, a disparity even more noticeable among higher level scientist. But a narrative that suggests they pushed back the scales of religion in the process of acquiring their education, is not supported. They possibly weren't particularly drawn to religion to begin with, not many of the accounts of higher scientist, show much of a fervent youthful religious period in their biographies. They don't particularly include de-conversion stories, but often highlight a lifelong apathy towards religion.

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"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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