Theists and BS assumptions about science
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26-04-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 12:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Let's just address your assumptions about what I said real quick:

Quote:1) it assumes that there is a religious test of some sort for scientists. There isn't. Not at the BA/BS level, or the MS/MA, or MD/PhD.

No, I don't assume there is some religious test for some sorts of scientists, or any real barrier preventing religious people from being scientists, or majoring in it.

Quote:2.) it assumes science cares about religion in the first place. This ignorance indicates you've never taken a science course taught by a scientist.

No, I don't think scientists or science in general cares much about religion.

Quote:3) it implies that "atheism" and science are intrinsically linked such that being included as a scientist requires one be less religious or non-religious or an atheist/agnostic.

No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science.

Quote:More educated tends to correlate with less religious, and scientists are among the most well educated.

If we're referring to the non-religious population, the nones more so than atheists, that correlation doesn't really exist.

In fact the disparities are different depending on your field. Close to 80% of medical doctors believe in God, while its about half of all scientist. Women in America tend to be better educated than men, but yet only make up about 30% of atheists.

And if you're uneducated, you're more likely to disassociate with religion more so now than ever. The trends don't particularly support the view that education, and non- religiousness go hand in hand.

"The core finding is that the association between graduating from college and religious disaffiliation has changed drastically across generations," said Philip Schwadel, the study's author and a professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. For people who were born in the 1920s and '30s, the godless-college-grad stereotype is somewhat true: They were twice as likely as their uneducated peers to be religionless, not identifying with a particular church or synagogue or other religious institution.

But over time, that trend changed. "For those people who were born in the 1960s, there’s really no difference between the college-educated and the non-college-educated in terms of their likelihood of disaffiliating from religion," Schwadel said. "And for those born in the 1970s, it’s actually the non-college-educated who are relatively likely to disaffiliate."

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/arc...ty/375950/

And if we're speaking of religious participation, like church attendance, and not stay at home believer type, the steepest declines in the last four decades in church attendance among whites at least, is among the poor, while the church attendance by higher income whites with at least a bachelors degree has barely changed in that same time period from 50% to 46%.

"While religious service attendance has decreased for all white Americans since the early 1970s, the rate of decline has been more than twice as high for less educated, lower and lower-middle class whites compared to more educated and presumably more affluent whites, according to a study presented Saturday at the annual meeting of the American Sociological Association in Las Vegas." [...]

"Church attendance by higher-income whites with at least a bachelor’s degree barely dipped, from 50 percent to 46 percent."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44192469/ns/he...x-qPLyCzww

All of this to say the relationship between religion, non-religion, and education, is far more complex, and not particularly supportive of the notion that education and lack of religiousness go hand in hand.

But there is steep relationship between self-identifying atheists, and scientist, a disparity even more noticeable among higher level scientist. But a narrative that suggests they pushed back the scales of religion in the process of acquiring their education, is not supported. They possibly weren't particularly drawn to religion to begin with, not many of the accounts of higher scientist, show much of a fervent youthful religious period in their biographies. They don't particularly include de-conversion stories, but often highlight a lifelong apathy towards religion.

"No, I don't assume there is some religious test for some sorts of scientists, or any real barrier preventing religious people from being scientists, or majoring in it. "

You assume religion/religious identity plays a role.

"No, I don't think scientists or science in general cares much about religion."

This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science.

This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

"If we're referring to the non-religious population, the nones more so than atheists, that correlation doesn't really exist. "

Yes, that correlation does remain (this statement of yours would also contradict other posts by you citing other pew polls):
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scien...nd-belief/

"In fact the disparities are different depending on your field. Close to 80% of medical doctors believe in God, while its about half of all scientist. Women in America tend to be better educated than men, but yet only make up about 30% of atheists. "

Cherry-picking subsets of people within science to contradict yourself Thumbsup

"And if you're uneducated, you're more likely to disassociate with religion more so now than ever. The trends don't particularly support the view that education, and non- religiousness go hand in hand. "

The data don't support your article from the Atlantic.


[attachment=3364]

"And if we're speaking of religious participation, like church attendance, and not stay at home believer type, the steepest declines in the last four decades in church attendance among whites at least, is among the poor, while the church attendance by higher income whites with at least a bachelors degree has barely changed in that same time period from 50% to 46%. "

Irrelevant

"All of this to say the relationship between religion, non-religion, and education, is far more complex, and not particularly supportive of the notion that education and lack of religiousness go hand in hand. "

The trend is there, and it is pretty fucking straightforward.

And in any event, not a single fucking thing you have posted or asserted supports this bullshit statement you made:
"It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

"But there is steep relationship between self-identifying atheists, and scientist, a disparity even more noticeable among higher level scientist. But a narrative that suggests they pushed back the scales of religion in the process of acquiring their education, is not supported. "

among higher level scientist = more highly educated

"But a narrative that suggests they pushed back the scales of religion in the process of acquiring their education, is not supported. " = This is the BS claim that YOU made.

"They possibly weren't particularly drawn to religion to begin with, not many of the accounts of higher scientist, show much of a fervent youthful religious period in their biographies. They don't particularly include de-conversion stories, but often highlight a lifelong apathy towards religion."

Your personal interpretation of a large swath of humans (the scientists) has exactly 0 credibility. I was quite religious when I was younger. Dawkins talks of the religious views of his youth. Darwin did too. Einstein. Etc, etc, etc.

And once again, this does NOT support your bullshit claims. You are trying to cherry-pick anecdotes while making broad generalizations about scientists that do NOT have any bearing in reality.

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26-04-2016, 01:00 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2016 01:04 PM by Deesse23.)
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 12:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science.

(24-04-2016 06:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think people inclined to be atheists are drawn to study the sciences. That there's perhaps some parallel here between why folks on the autistic spectrum are drawn to these fields, and atheists in general.

Consider

Not only does this dishonest piece of shit think there is a link between atheism and science, he thinks there is an link between atheism, science and autism.

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26-04-2016, 01:05 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 12:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

No, they directly contradict your assumptions about statements I made, duh. If you you want to continue down the line of telling me what I said, when I just pointed out to you that I don't hold those views, by all means go ahead fuckhead.

Quote:Your personal interpretation of a large swath of humans (the scientists) has exactly 0 credibility. I was quite religious when I was younger. Dawkins talks of the religious views of his youth. Darwin did too. Einstein. Etc, etc, etc.

And once again, this does NOT support your bullshit claims. You are trying to cherry-pick anecdotes while making broad generalizations about scientists that do NOT have any bearing in reality.

Dawkins identified as an atheist at the age of 16, Einstein also lost his faith early in childhood. Long before they went off to college, and started specializing in particular scientific fields, and in a period in which they were primarily only receiving a general education. Or in other words their atheism had little to do with their extensive education in their respective fields.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-04-2016, 01:06 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 01:00 PM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 12:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science.

(24-04-2016 06:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think people inclined to be atheists are drawn to study the sciences. That there's perhaps some parallel here between why folks on the autistic spectrum are drawn to these fields, and atheists in general.

Consider

Not only does this dishonest piece of shit think there is a link between atheism and science, he thinks there is an link between atheism, science and autism.

Consistency and honesty aren't typical for him.

Especially uncommon is him admitting:
1) when he is wrong
2) when he is spouting off bullshit
3) when he is directly contradicting himself
4) when he is being blatantly dishonest

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26-04-2016, 01:15 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 01:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 12:52 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

This directly contradicts statements you have explicitly made.

No, they directly contradict your assumptions about statements I made, duh. If you you want to continue down the line of telling me what I said, when I just pointed out to you that I don't hold those views, by all means go ahead fuckhead.

Quote:Your personal interpretation of a large swath of humans (the scientists) has exactly 0 credibility. I was quite religious when I was younger. Dawkins talks of the religious views of his youth. Darwin did too. Einstein. Etc, etc, etc.

And once again, this does NOT support your bullshit claims. You are trying to cherry-pick anecdotes while making broad generalizations about scientists that do NOT have any bearing in reality.

Dawkins identified as an atheist at the age of 16, Einstein also lost his faith early in childhood. Long before they went off to college, and started specializing in particular scientific fields, and in a period in which they were primarily only receiving a general education. Or in other words their atheism had little to do with their extensive education in their respective fields.

"No, they directly contradict your assumptions about statements I made, duh. If you you want to continue down the line of telling me what I said, when I just pointed out to you that I don't hold those views, by all means go ahead fuckhead. "

I use statements YOU make, then you make later statements contradicting yourself. This isn't a line I am going down, it is the line you keep drawing. Drinking Beverage

"Dawkins identified as an atheist at the age of 16, Einstein also lost his faith early in childhood. Long before they went off to college, and started specializing in particular scientific fields, and in a period in which they were primarily only receiving a general education. Or in other words their atheism had little to do with their extensive education in their respective fields."

Who. Gives. A. Shit?

Cherry picking anecdotes in order to ignore the observations pointed out to you, in the hopes that some piece of shit your flinging agains the wall will stick, is typical theist bullshit.


For instance, your own words:
"It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

This is contradicted by statements you have made. As an example:
"Dawkins identified as an atheist at the age of 16, Einstein also lost his faith early in childhood. Long before they went off to college, and started specializing in particular scientific fields, and in a period in which they were primarily only receiving a general education. Or in other words their atheism had little to do with their extensive education in their respective fields."

Your own cherry-picked anecdotes (^) indicate that these scientists did NOT choose their religious beliefs/opinions because of how they wanted "others" within science to perceive of them.

Your article from the Atlantic would also contradict your very statements if the trend of education level had nothing to do with religious opinion in more recent decades.

"But over time, that trend changed. "For those people who were born in the 1960s, there’s really no difference between the college-educated and the non-college-educated in terms of their likelihood of disaffiliating from religion," Schwadel said. "And for those born in the 1970s, it’s actually the non-college-educated who are relatively likely to disaffiliate." "

Meaning that YOU believe that (or you say that) scientists select their religious views/opinions based on how they will be viewed, even though you believe there is no trend among education and religiousness.



You contradict yourself in even simple assertions. For instance:
This:
"No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science."
is directly contradicted by this:
"It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

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26-04-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
Here, let's make it real simple for you.

Why do you believe that education level among scientists, correlates with less/non-religiousness/atheism?

Option 1) Scientists become less religious to "fit in"
Option 2) Scientists become increasingly more skeptical of super-nature as they study nature in greater detail
Option 3) There is no trend because I both acknowledge and don't acknowledge the existence of the correlation (my agreement with the correlation is dependent upon when I think it does or doesn't support a claim I am making)

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26-04-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 01:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Meaning that YOU believe that (or you say that) scientists select their religious views/opinions based on how they will be viewed, even though you believe there is no trend among education and religiousness.

This is why I avoid conversations with you on most occasions. I never once claimed, nor do I believe that scientists select their views based on how they will be viewed. As if their atheisms is a product of peer pressure or some shit.

You made that shit up fuckhead. You're so deluded that you see statements that are not there, accuse me of holding views that I don't even support, and still imagine that I hold them even after explictily pointing out to you that I don't.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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26-04-2016, 01:28 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 01:15 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Meaning that YOU believe that (or you say that) scientists select their religious views/opinions based on how they will be viewed, even though you believe there is no trend among education and religiousness.

This is why I avoid conversations with you on most occasions. I never once claimed, nor do I believe that scientists select their views based on how they will be viewed. As if their atheisms is a product of peer pressure or some shit.

You made that shit up fuckhead. You're so deluded that you see statements that are not there, accuse me of holding views that I don't even support, and still imagine that I hold them even after explictily pointing out to you that I don't.

You do realize that these are YOUR words, right?
"It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

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26-04-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
"This is why I avoid conversations with you on most occasions. "

Because I explicitly call you on your bullshit? Yeah, I'd avoid conversations with people who pointed out the bullshit in things I say if I were too intellectually dishonest to admit it.

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26-04-2016, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 26-04-2016 02:20 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Theists and BS assumptions about science
(26-04-2016 01:19 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Here, let's make it real simple for you.

Why do you believe that education level among scientists, correlates with less/non-religiousness/atheism?

Option 1) Scientists become less religious to "fit in"

No I don't believe this.


Quote:Option 2) Scientists become increasingly more skeptical of super-nature as they study nature in greater detail.

I don't think this is true either. Anecdotal histories of scientists like Einsteins, Dawkins indicate they became atheists at young age, long before they started studying nature in greater detail.

But I don't know of any actual comprehensive survey of scientist, indicating the average age they abandon their theism. But there doesn't seem to be any reason to assume that it correlates with the period in which they devoted themselves to studying nature in greater detail. It doesn't seem that in any of the biographies particularly of any higher level scientist that this was the case, either.

Quote:Option 3) There is no trend because I both acknowledge and don't acknowledge the existence of the correlation (my agreement with the correlation is dependent upon when I think it does or doesn't support a claim I am making)

There is a correlation. Clearly there's disparity between the percentage of scientist who are atheists and the general population, as well between scientists and other professions like medical doctors. Surprisingly it's among American professors, it's not professors of biology, or physics who are the least religious, but psychologists.

It's the narratives in which they became atheists as a result of studying nature in greater detail, that doesn't seem to hold up.

Quote:You contradict yourself in even simple assertions. For instance:
This:
"No, I don't believe there is any intrinsic link between atheism and science."
is directly contradicted by this:
"It's not about reason, science, of evidence per se, but one's chosen identify, how he wants to see himself, and be recognized by others as. And I think this makes it bit more complicated, than any overtly simplistic explanations."

There you go taking a statement about self-identifying atheists (a small fraction of which are probably even scientist), making a variety of erroneous assumptions about it. In your convoluted reading that latter statement, explicitly stated that there is an "intrinsic line between atheism and science". When it did no such thing.

I'm not sure how a statement that claims that atheism has little to do with science, can be read as a statement that there's an "intrinsic link between atheism and science". Only in your fantastical mind.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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