Theists consider this please.
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05-08-2014, 06:31 AM
Theists consider this please.
I know I wont get through to some, especially the far right of any religion who drink it like Kool Aid. But for the theists who do come here please consider the following.

All the time from liberal and moderate believers of ALL religions I often get "Of course others outside my religion can do good and be good".

I would say you then need to consider that it is our appeal to our evolutionary empathy that allows or compassion for our fellow human, and is not coming from a book, a club or a god/s or a god.

Certainly many believers accept the age of our planet and evolution. None of our modern monotheism or modern polytheism or even so called secular religions were around 200,000 years ago and we still managed as a species to do both cruel acts and acts of compassion and still managed to reproduce. Trace our species DNA back far enough and we all came from Africa.

I submit that religion exists as an anthropomorphic placebo reflecting our evolutionary group survival instincts. If you find the same kind stories and kind motifs in the religions of others then it is obvious to me that human morality is not an invention or patent of a religion, but is part of our evolution.

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05-08-2014, 07:20 AM
RE: Theists consider this please.
Some people often an argument from "experience", and if you think only one label makes this argument, you'd be wrong, I have been online almost every single day for 13 years hearing this argument from every label.

The skeptic would argue "we don't doubt you had an experience, but we do doubt your interpretation of that experience". Often argued are "I went through hell in my life and religion saved me" or "I survived something I should not have survived".

On a global scale on average there are 50 million deaths from everything. Worldwide humans die in childbirth, from disease, famine, natural disaster, crime and war. If you die or survive something, it is not a god deciding it, it is because of the conditions which have complex factors that lead up to either. When you have an "oh shit" moment and jump to conclusions what you are doing mentally is suffering from selection bias and sample rate error.

So if on average 50 million people die worldwide from everything, that means half a billion in 10 years and 1 billion deaths in 20 years. If a factory had such spotty output it would not be in business.

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05-08-2014, 09:01 AM
RE: Theists consider this please.
I approve this message Tongue Smile

"If you cannot explain it simply, you don't understand it enough" -Albert Einstein
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05-08-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
Unfortunately, I think the theist reply is too easy and predictable. They will say that morality comes from "God" and "God" has instilled that moral knowledge in each of us regardless of what religion we belong to. When we do acts of "goodness", it comes from that morality and therefore from the one true "God" even if the individual belongs to the "wrong" religion. Even with that "God"-given moral knowledge, we can make the wrong moral choices and can therefore belong to the "wrong" religion while still doing some acts of "rightness".

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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05-08-2014, 01:27 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
(05-08-2014 01:23 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Unfortunately, I think the theist reply is too easy and predictable. They will say that morality comes from "God" and "God" has instilled that moral knowledge in each of us regardless of what religion we belong to. When we do acts of "goodness", it comes from that morality and therefore from the one true "God" even if the individual belongs to the "wrong" religion. Even with that "God"-given moral knowledge, we can make the wrong moral choices and can therefore belong to the "wrong" religion while still doing some acts of "rightness".

Indeed this is what they say.

It is demonstrably false, because that would imply an objective morality, which we certainly do not have. Over most peoples heads, and too difficult and academic a discussion to have with a theist Drinking Beverage .
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05-08-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
(05-08-2014 01:23 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Unfortunately, I think the theist reply is too easy and predictable. They will say that morality comes from "God" and "God" has instilled that moral knowledge in each of us regardless of what religion we belong to. When we do acts of "goodness", it comes from that morality and therefore from the one true "God" even if the individual belongs to the "wrong" religion. Even with that "God"-given moral knowledge, we can make the wrong moral choices and can therefore belong to the "wrong" religion while still doing some acts of "rightness".

They try to wiggle out of everything. That is why you ask them "which one". And of course they got the right one. How do they know? They just do.

Allah=Morals
Yahweh=Morals
Vishnu=Morals

Or, all of them are wrong and their morals are in our evolution.

If they can accept that there are gods they don't buy then what makes them think they are not making the same mental mistake?

Tradition is not evidence.
Emotional experience is not evidence.
Retrofitting science to prop up your sky hero is not evidence.

They all do it, Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindues, Mormons. Even oriental religions have superstitions about demons and ghosts.

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05-08-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
(05-08-2014 06:31 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  I know I wont get through to some, especially the far right of any religion who drink it like Kool Aid. But for the theists who do come here please consider the following.

All the time from liberal and moderate believers of ALL religions I often get "Of course others outside my religion can do good and be good".

I would say you then need to consider that it is our appeal to our evolutionary empathy that allows or compassion for our fellow human, and is not coming from a book, a club or a god/s or a god.

Certainly many believers accept the age of our planet and evolution. None of our modern monotheism or modern polytheism or even so called secular religions were around 200,000 years ago and we still managed as a species to do both cruel acts and acts of compassion and still managed to reproduce. Trace our species DNA back far enough and we all came from Africa.

I submit that religion exists as an anthropomorphic placebo reflecting our evolutionary group survival instincts. If you find the same kind stories and kind motifs in the religions of others then it is obvious to me that human morality is not an invention or patent of a religion, but is part of our evolution.

Some good points re organized religion....

Do you see a superior transcendent universal force, not necessarily engaged with us in any way, as remotely possible?

" Of course I doubt, I practise faith, not certainty.'
Robert Brault.
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05-08-2014, 05:15 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
(05-08-2014 06:31 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  I know I wont get through to some, especially the far right of any religion who drink it like Kool Aid. But for the theists who do come here please consider the following.

All the time from liberal and moderate believers of ALL religions I often get "Of course others outside my religion can do good and be good".

I would say you then need to consider that it is our appeal to our evolutionary empathy that allows or compassion for our fellow human, and is not coming from a book, a club or a god/s or a god.

Certainly many believers accept the age of our planet and evolution. None of our modern monotheism or modern polytheism or even so called secular religions were around 200,000 years ago and we still managed as a species to do both cruel acts and acts of compassion and still managed to reproduce. Trace our species DNA back far enough and we all came from Africa.

I submit that religion exists as an anthropomorphic placebo reflecting our evolutionary group survival instincts. If you find the same kind stories and kind motifs in the religions of others then it is obvious to me that human morality is not an invention or patent of a religion, but is part of our evolution.

Religion is about how people respond to their belief in the existence of God(s) and not the correctness or logic of that belief. Religion is that sense tells us nothing about the actual existence of God(s), only what people believe. It is entirely possible that every religion is false and that at least one God(s) exists.

That people behave badly in their practice of their religion says nothing about the existence of God(s). Since atheism is about the existence of God(s), religion is really irrelevant. These discussions should be about why God(s) do not or cannot exist.

Edna

Dr. Edna Feldspar
Center of Advanced Scrutiny
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05-08-2014, 06:15 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
(05-08-2014 04:53 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(05-08-2014 06:31 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  I know I wont get through to some, especially the far right of any religion who drink it like Kool Aid. But for the theists who do come here please consider the following.

All the time from liberal and moderate believers of ALL religions I often get "Of course others outside my religion can do good and be good".

I would say you then need to consider that it is our appeal to our evolutionary empathy that allows or compassion for our fellow human, and is not coming from a book, a club or a god/s or a god.

Certainly many believers accept the age of our planet and evolution. None of our modern monotheism or modern polytheism or even so called secular religions were around 200,000 years ago and we still managed as a species to do both cruel acts and acts of compassion and still managed to reproduce. Trace our species DNA back far enough and we all came from Africa.

I submit that religion exists as an anthropomorphic placebo reflecting our evolutionary group survival instincts. If you find the same kind stories and kind motifs in the religions of others then it is obvious to me that human morality is not an invention or patent of a religion, but is part of our evolution.

Some good points re organized religion....

Do you see a superior transcendent universal force, not necessarily engaged with us in any way, as remotely possible?

No, "all this" you could consider one giant weather pattern. Just like weather it is not caused by a being, and has both predictable and quantum properties. No need to stick a magic being or woo, or new age crap. What we don't know now still will not require any of that.

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05-08-2014, 06:20 PM
RE: Theists consider this please.
The odds of a cosmic sky daddy existing you could put at 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000​0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001

Monkeys might fly out of my butt, but I wouldn't place bets on it.

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