Theists fail to understand
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02-03-2013, 01:43 PM
RE: Theists fail to understand
(01-03-2013 08:08 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 05:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A theory based on facts and sound logic is itself a fact.

Sound logic isn't always true.

All birds fly
Penguins are birds
Therefore penguins fly

Clearly not a fact.

Having studied logic, let me clarify this issue. A logical statement that follows proper logical protocol is valid. For example, the statement above is valid because it says that all of Set A (birds) hold property B (flying). Since Penguins belong to set A, they hold property B. However, it is not sound because not all of the premises are true (it isn't true that all birds fly; it is true if and only if flying is part of what defines a bird).

So it is conclusive that facts are based on "sound" logic. Fstratzero, you mixed up "sound" for "valid"... you're right that not all "valid" logic is factual, but you're wrong to say that all "sound" logic is not factual. If a logical statement has a proper setup (it is valid) and all of the premises are true, then the statement is sound and the conclusion is undeniably and inescapably correct.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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02-03-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: Theists fail to understand
(01-03-2013 01:43 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  I don't get it either.

I'm wondering if it's possible that it could be genetic, physiological in some way. I wonder if certain brains just cannot be blinded by faith and certain brains just cannot be otherwise.

OK, I doubt that's true. Too many atheists who are ex-theists for that to make much sense, but maybe it's not black-and-white, maybe it's not a matter of "cannot" but rather a matter of "likely".

I am sure the "get them while they're young" relies heavily on the fact that the frontal lobe, the part of our brain that examines facts, correlates data, and makes logical, rational decisions, doesn't develop until we're in our early 20's. So indoctrinating children means they cannot rationally evaluate the indoctrination so they are far more susceptible to it - try the same thing on the same person but wait until they're in their mid-20s and it's a much harder task to indoctrinate them.

But maybe that's not the whole picture. Maybe the frontal lobes are more developed or more active in some people than in others. Maybe this development or activity makes some people evaluate religion as nonsense while the lack of that development or activity makes some people never attempt, or never succeed, at the same evaluation.

I'm no neuroscientist so I'm just talking out of my ass, but I wonder if there is any such (or other) physiological reason for it, and also for why the most die-hard theists, the most outspoken, often seem to be the least rational of them all.
I am no neurologists myself, but have read up a lot on this. The brain tends to adapt to how we use it, areas of the brain will actually grow larger or/and be used more depending on how we use it. There is no actual spot that we can say links to a belief of god. Just that religious people tend use certain areas of the brain more then non believers and vice-verse.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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02-03-2013, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2013 11:43 PM by Adenosis.)
RE: Theists fail to understand
Quote: Various experiments have also tried to elucidate whether believing in God causes similar brain changes as believing in something else. The results, so far, show that thinking about God may activate the same parts of the brain as thinking about an airplane, a friend or a lamppost. For instance, one study showed that when religious people prayed to God, they used some of the same areas of the brain as when they talked to an average Joe. In other words, in the religious person’s brain, God is just as real as any object or person.

Research also suggests that a ­religious brain exhibits higher levels of dopamine, a hormone associated with increased attention and motivation. A study showed that believers were much more likely than skeptics to see words and faces on a screen when there were none, whereas skeptics often did not see words and faces that were actually there. Yet when skeptics were given the drug L-dopa, which increases the amount of dopamine in the brain, they were just as likely to interpret scrambled patterns as words and faces as were the religious individuals.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-the-brain

Fancy. I remember hearing/reading that the theists brain lights up in the same areas when thinking of god or when thinking of a close friend or something. Will have to find studies for this and post em.

I do plan to get into Neurology, so I'll keep posting if I find anything interesting Wink

2.5 billion seconds total
1.67 billion seconds conscious

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03-03-2013, 01:06 AM
RE: Theists fail to understand
(02-03-2013 01:43 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-03-2013 08:08 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Sound logic isn't always true.

All birds fly
Penguins are birds
Therefore penguins fly

Clearly not a fact.


So it is conclusive that facts are based on "sound" logic. Fstratzero, you mixed up "sound" for "valid"... you're right that not all "valid" logic is factual, but you're wrong to say that all "sound" logic is not factual. If a logical statement has a proper setup (it is valid) and all of the premises are true, then the statement is sound and the conclusion is undeniably and inescapably correct.
Let the record reflect that it was I who first mixed up "sound" and "valid" and not Fstratzero(he just used sound as I had used it). Had I known that sound byte was going to be debated, I would have been a little more careful in my choice of words.
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03-03-2013, 04:50 AM
RE: Theists fail to understand
Faith to an uber religious person is the beginning and the end.. and seems rather dangerous to me... they generally do not have the knowledge, seek the knowlege, and are super defensive about anything that conflicts with it.. I think fear drives people to think that if they question they will suffer... and so ignorance is bliss?!

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