Theists must think we're complete morons
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17-10-2015, 04:52 PM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2015 02:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 03:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 03:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Not subjective. Relative to an axiomatic framework is not the same as subjective.


What is the axiomatic framework? On my view there are only a handful of true axioms? I feel like I'm on the verge here of solving a problem that has vexed me for quite some time.

In a binary valued logic the Law of the Excluded Middle P or ~P is true and the Law of Noncontradiction P and ~P is false. By definition and shit. In ternary valued logic if there is no direct support for either P or ~P it is "indeterminate". In 4 valued logic the Law of Noncontradiction does not hold. If there is evidence for both P and ~P then it is "unknown".

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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17-10-2015, 05:05 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 04:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 03:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  What is the axiomatic framework? On my view there are only a handful of true axioms? I feel like I'm on the verge here of solving a problem that has vexed me for quite some time.

In a binary valued logic the Law of the Excluded Middle P or ~P is true. In ternary valued logic if there is no direct support for either P or ~P it is "indeterminate". In 4 valued logic the Law of Noncontradiction does not hold. If there is evidence for both P and ~P then it is "unknown".


Thank you. You and Matt have helped me to solve a problem that has bothered me for a long time now. I see the disconnect now. I've had the objective theory of concepts for so long that I simply take it for granted now. No objective theory of concepts, no objective theory of values. No objective theory of values, no objective theory of ethics. Now I see why I've had an equally difficult time discussing morality with both atheists and theists. This has been a great day. Thank you.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-10-2015, 05:13 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 03:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 02:09 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Yes.

There is no such thing as "objective truth". All "truth" is relative to its axiomatic framework. Like by definition and shit.

Is any fact "objective truth"?

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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17-10-2015, 06:03 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(16-10-2015 11:15 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  I think one of my favorite (in the "that's so awful it's astounding") theist arguments is the "You just want to sin" argument.

Aside from the obvious complete denial of someone's own words, and the fact that Christianity is set up in such a way that we can sin all we want and then just go "Hey, sorry" and be forgiven, it begs one very important question; just how stupid to theists think we are?

"Don't do this list of things under these circumstances for roughly seventy years, and recieve complete and total bliss for literally forever, which makes said seventy years look like a fraction of a blink of an eye. Do this list of things under these circumstances and be sent to unimaginable torture for literally forever." Who the hell picks the second option on that? Who on Earth would seriously willingly pick eternal pain instead of eternal happiness, all for just the tiniest amount of time doing some specific things that presumably pale in comparison to said eternal happiness?

I know we like to joke around about how oh yeah bacon is totally worth eternal torture but we only say that because we're joking and we know the threat doesn't actually exist anyway. It's like a kid coming up to us and threatening to sic his pet t-rex on us if we don't give him our toy car. Sure we're going to joke about that, it's completely ridiculous, but if there was any actual chance he actually had a t-rex at his beck and call the kid would get the toy, it's not worth it. You'd need to be a total moron to pick your brief, so-so happiness over much, much longer, much, much better happiness. Except the Christian's threat makes a t-rex look like a pet mouse lemur.

(For the record, this is also a problem I have with any and all "deal with the devil" storylines in anything. Nothing you're trading for is worth it, why the hell are you doing it? )

If anything, I'd think "sinning" as an atheist would be a pretty good indicator you're sincere when you say you don't believe, cause no one in their right mind would through away billions of trillions of millenia of heavily bliss just for seventy years of Earthly pleasures.

Then again, we're denying that so totally obviously obvious presense of gawd, so maybe they think us being complete idiots isn't a baseless idea.

And yeah, I know Christian arguments never make sense, this is just ranting on a specific gripe for me.


Nobody has ever said that shit to me, and if they did would never forget my response!

Seriously, you guys have to put up with this idiocy?

So glad I am not American!

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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17-10-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Christians can eat whatever animal they want.

In general. The last Christian church I was part of had almost the same kosher rules as Judaism. In fact, from what I hear, it's not that rare.
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17-10-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 06:59 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 10:29 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Christians can eat whatever animal they want.

In general. The last Christian church I was part of had almost the same kosher rules as Judaism. In fact, from what I hear, it's not that rare.
Acts 10:15 The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

This is the scripture that tells me I can eat my bacon. Yum.
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17-10-2015, 07:09 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
However, Leviticus specifically denies certain foods to all. And Matthew 5:17-21 didn't undo the old laws.

But... I don't care. I'm not Catholic or any sort of Christian anymore. Smile
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17-10-2015, 09:38 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 04:52 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 03:55 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  What is the axiomatic framework? On my view there are only a handful of true axioms? I feel like I'm on the verge here of solving a problem that has vexed me for quite some time.

In a binary valued logic the Law of the Excluded Middle P or ~P is true. In ternary valued logic if there is no direct support for either P or ~P it is "indeterminate". In 4 valued logic the Law of Noncontradiction does not hold. If there is evidence for both P and ~P then it is "unknown".

This is so far over my head. Thanks Girly, for making me feel like a complete dolt.Sadcryface I mean, really. What the fuck does this mean in plain English.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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17-10-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
What I find hilarious is when someone says "who holds you accountable?" Not realizing that the entire christian religion is not based on accountability at all but on scapegoating which is the antithesis of accountability. How can being forgiven (no questions attached) for literally every transgression except for disbelief even considered to be accountable?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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18-10-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 09:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 09:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." - Robert A. Heinlein
What if someone did not have the same definition of sin as you do? What if I said it was not a sin to do harm to others if it was for the greater good?

Trying to justify something with greater good is in my opinion good indicator of totalitarian ideology. After all greatest tragedies of XX century were done in name of grater good, be it greater good of workers or Aryan race.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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