Theists must think we're complete morons
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17-10-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 09:06 AM)jennybee Wrote:  If God was a person who was doing half the shit he did in the Bible, most Christians would say wow, what a horrible, vile person. But since God is magical and he does do some good shit--well let's just focus on that and pretend the bad stuff doesn't count anymore 'cause Jesus. And my favorite Christian response:

"Well, thoooose people that God did all of those horrible things to--well, they deserved it for choosing to disobey God and not loving Him enough."

Really?? God is love and yet acts like a monster (via famine, rape, smiting, illness etc.) to people who actively disobey and don't love him enough? Niiiice God.

When Stalin does that "you disobeyed my Grand Plan and direct commands, so you all have to die" stuff, he's a monster of the worst imaginable sort, and none of the good things he did could possibly count against it. We all agree on this.

When Hitler defenders try to wave away the horrible stuff he did, they always point to "all the good things he did", and we mock such people as vile human beings. And rightly so.

When God does exactly the same stuff, Christians say "but he does good things!"

The actions of this deity are indistinguishable from those of a murderous, self-centered tyrannical dictator, of the kind humanity has known throughout history. Listening to Christians saying that he "now" is all good and loving is akin to saying a king who murdered his way to the top, wiped out entire cities in order to establish power, and killed anyone who did not acknowledge his reign... but now that he is on the throne, the groups of people he favors say "What a wonderful king he is! Look how well he treats us!"

Meanwhile, the rest of us in the out-groups are standing among our slaughtered family's gravesites, looking at the rubble of the cities he razed and asking, "Are we talking about the same guy?"

It is never okay to point to the good deeds of a genocidal, vain/jealous, and selfish tyrant, and call him a hero. Not even if you made the guy up.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 08:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How does an atheist sin? What is right and what is wrong?

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." - Robert A. Heinlein

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 09:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How does an atheist sin? What is right and what is wrong?

"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." - Robert A. Heinlein
What if someone did not have the same definition of sin as you do? What if I said it was not a sin to do harm to others if it was for the greater good?
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17-10-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
At work.

(17-10-2015 09:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What if someone did not have the same definition of sin as you do? What if I said it was not a sin to do harm to others if it was for the greater good?

You can have as many, different definitions of 'Sin' as you want.... and more power to you.

You can, however, agree that brining 'Harm' or 'Hurt' to another is bad/deleterious to said other, right?

So we're on the same page there.

Your comment 'For the good' is hence superfluous. ..... or begging another question.....
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17-10-2015, 10:13 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 09:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 09:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful - just stupid)." - Robert A. Heinlein
What if someone did not have the same definition of sin as you do? What if I said it was not a sin to do harm to others if it was for the greater good?

That'd be my primary objection to religions, actually. They all seem to have some idea of "the greater good" which, while they claim it comes from "god(s)", tends to dovetail quite clearly with the ideologies and prejudices of the priesthood that espouses them.

Heinlein's point is that all "sins" are made up, and the only standard is that humans should not harm others for their own purposes, as allowing this is to our mutual detriment.

Even then, that is not really a "sin", except in the rhetorical sense. Humans work together to prevent the selfish individual from harming others in that sense because we are social animals. When people (or societies) do harm others, it's still not a "sin". It's just harmful. Nothing more, nothing less. What we do about that is up to us. Atheists can advocate for systems which are more fair to more people, and try to convince others to join us in building such a system... but it's still nothing to do with this vague notion of sin.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 10:14 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
What about doing harm to animals?
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17-10-2015, 10:15 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
What about it?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 10:17 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 09:06 AM)jennybee Wrote:  I'm with RS about the "morality" in the Bible. If the Bible was a wonderful book filled with peace, love, and happiness and good learning tools on how to live a life well-lived, then maybe I would consider it--if I decided to go back into delusion. If God was a person who was doing half the shit he did in the Bible, most Christians would say wow, what a horrible, vile person. But since God is magical and he does do some good shit--well let's just focus on that and pretend the bad stuff doesn't count anymore 'cause Jesus. And my favorite Christian response:

"Well, thoooose people that God did all of those horrible things to--well, they deserved it for choosing to disobey God and not loving Him enough."

Really?? God is love and yet acts like a monster (via famine, rape, smiting, illness etc.) to people who actively disobey and don't love him enough? Niiiice God.

That is it in a nutshell - my thoughts when I deconverted. That's all it took, reading the bible once.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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17-10-2015, 10:23 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:14 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  What about doing harm to animals?

Well, God does love the smell of burning animal flesh...

Yet another reason why I am an atheist.
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17-10-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
Don't we all? I love me a good ribeye on a charcoal grill.
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