Theists must think we're complete morons
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17-10-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
Earlier someone said that it was stupid for someone to hurt themselves. If they are suffering in life and they don't want to suffer anymore. Why would it be stupid for someone to end their own suffering in order to not exist anymore?
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17-10-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-10-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:01 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Earlier someone said that it was stupid for someone to hurt themselves. If they are suffering in life and they don't want to suffer anymore. Why would it be stupid for someone to end their own suffering in order to not exist anymore?

I really wish you would dissect the Bible with the same mental clarity you are using to pick apart our words...

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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17-10-2015, 11:06 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.
Under what definition. What you may believe is wrong may be completely acceptable to me and vice versa.
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17-10-2015, 11:08 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So even among atheist there is no true standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong. Some people may believe that sin is only when you do harm to another. Some think that people are animals and animals are people so killing an animal would be equal to murder. Some people say it is ok to hunt for food but not for sport. Others say raising animals on a farm for food is a sin. What would the atheist solution be to make sure the whole world was on the same page. Am I a sinner because I like to eat ribeye steak that was raised on a farm and killed on an assembly line? If so, who are you to judge? Under what reason can I be judged?

Sin is a made up concept. You keep trying to say there are "atheist sins", but there just aren't.

That's a very different question than "no right and no wrong". Humans make judgment calls all the time on what we consider socially acceptable, and I like to think that we have moved toward a better and more fair system (my personal measurement system, which I think many humans of all stripes tend to share; we all, except for sociopaths and fanatics who have adopted an external set of ideas over their own, clearly have a feeling of altruism and conscience, which tends to favor such ideas). We can convince one another that it is in all our interests to adopt more-fair systems, and to work on whatever flaws exist in our current systems, when they are noticed and pointed out by those who are harmed by the disparities.

Why is it so important to you theists to say that we atheists have no concept of right and wrong? We point out to you constantly that we do have such a system (and that it's the same system you use, except in cases where you've been taught that "God" wants something, though we can see quite clearly that it's just you Believers' way of expanding/enforcing your own "groupthink" social ideologies by claiming an ultimate lawgiver beyond "mere" humanity), and yet you keep ignoring us in favor of a label we tell you does not apply.

Why?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 11:09 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

It's clear you were getting at it. The point of others is trying to demonstrate, it's actually really no different than it is with theists. You can see it by looking at the manner which there is no clear defined answer from one group to another, no matter what the distinction is, religious or not.

I'm just still trying to figure out why you'd ask every little quoted idea one after eachother. Like see what your mindset is to see what you would actually care to read because it's kinda sporadic.

You've already just glossed over the response of how it's a social contract. Not sure what about it is still needing questions of. There's the semblance of Social Contract Theory, I.E. the golden rule (silver rule/platnium rule) types of reasoning. As in, we act the way we desire others to act to create a joint society that we all exist with most people desiring the same level of safety from harming. It's the mindset that bonds groups together, it's quite frequent with Mammals in communities.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-10-2015, 11:11 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

Because that's "eventually". We live here and now, and it's in everyone's interest to come to a social understanding of what the basic rights of individuals in a society are. It's really not that complicated, dude.

As for your use of the phrase "consensual sex with a minor", fuck you, man. There's no such thing as consensual sex with a minor... that's literally the definition of a "minor", unable to give consent. The age of majority is the age where we are able to give consent... again, that's literally what it means (not just for sex, but for things like contracts, medical procedures, etc).

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 11:14 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So even among atheist there is no true standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong. Some people may believe that sin is only when you do harm to another. Some think that people are animals and animals are people so killing an animal would be equal to murder. Some people say it is ok to hunt for food but not for sport. Others say raising animals on a farm for food is a sin. What would the atheist solution be to make sure the whole world was on the same page. Am I a sinner because I like to eat ribeye steak that was raised on a farm and killed on an assembly line? If so, who are you to judge? Under what reason can I be judged?

You realize the world isn't "on the same page" when it comes to morality?

You live in society in which we vote representatives to establish laws that we want to live by. There is no instance of absolute morality that you can point to that various countries/peoples live by.

We created morality, we established all moral law. Religion just piggybacked on this and took credit for it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-10-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:06 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.
Under what definition. What you may believe is wrong may be completely acceptable to me and vice versa.

You may not accept it but your acceptance is not the standard by which I judge, nor anyone else's. My standard is life. That which is proper to man's life is the good. That which is not proper to man's life is the bad. It's not that difficult. I have an objective standard, i.e. man's nature as man and what nature requires of man to live. So it is not a matter of what I feel or someone else feels. The good is what it is regardless of anyone's feelings, preferences, wishes, demands, or decrees. My beliefs or yours have no bearing on what is right or wrong. Reality, the reality of man's life, is the standard.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-10-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:14 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So even among atheist there is no true standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong. Some people may believe that sin is only when you do harm to another. Some think that people are animals and animals are people so killing an animal would be equal to murder. Some people say it is ok to hunt for food but not for sport. Others say raising animals on a farm for food is a sin. What would the atheist solution be to make sure the whole world was on the same page. Am I a sinner because I like to eat ribeye steak that was raised on a farm and killed on an assembly line? If so, who are you to judge? Under what reason can I be judged?

You realize the world isn't "on the same page" when it comes to morality?

You live in society in which we vote representatives to establish laws that we want to live by. There is no instance of absolute morality that you can point to that various countries/peoples live by.

We created morality, we established all moral law. Religion just piggybacked on this and took credit for it.

...And religion is a way to control people.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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