Theists must think we're complete morons
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17-10-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:14 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So even among atheist there is no true standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong. Some people may believe that sin is only when you do harm to another. Some think that people are animals and animals are people so killing an animal would be equal to murder. Some people say it is ok to hunt for food but not for sport. Others say raising animals on a farm for food is a sin. What would the atheist solution be to make sure the whole world was on the same page. Am I a sinner because I like to eat ribeye steak that was raised on a farm and killed on an assembly line? If so, who are you to judge? Under what reason can I be judged?

You realize the world isn't "on the same page" when it comes to morality?

You live in society in which we vote representatives to establish laws that we want to live by. There is no instance of absolute morality that you can point to that various countries/peoples live by.

We created morality, we established all moral law. Religion just piggybacked on this and took credit for it.

And gave it the name "sin."

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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17-10-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
I completely understand. I just want to make it clear that all I was doing was playing devil's advocate. Theism has resulted in many terrible things in this world. Murder, mass genocide, judgment and persecution... most of it was because of a distorted or perverted view on what their faith actually believe. However, I believe that religion, was key in setting a standard for morality. I believe that civilization would not have ever taken place if there was not a common belief with set standards of ethics.
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17-10-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
I heard someone refer to the "golden rule". I am sure you know that that was a teaching of Jesus Christ. To "do unto others what you would have done unto you". That in itself is a standard of ethics that even atheist tend to appreciate. Almost every nation has laws that are fundamentally built around religious codes of ethics. Doesn't mater if it is Christians, Muslim, jewish, ect.
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17-10-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
There is no right or wrong. It's not wrong to squash a million ants while driving your car down the road, and its not wrong to squash a million people with atom bombs. Nothing is sacred. We should get over this fact.
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17-10-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:16 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 11:14 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  You realize the world isn't "on the same page" when it comes to morality?

You live in society in which we vote representatives to establish laws that we want to live by. There is no instance of absolute morality that you can point to that various countries/peoples live by.

We created morality, we established all moral law. Religion just piggybacked on this and took credit for it.

And gave it the name "sin."
Interesting. Please explain. At what point did primitive apes begin to establish a moral code?
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17-10-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:16 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I completely understand. I just want to make it clear that all I was doing was playing devil's advocate. Theism has resulted in many terrible things in this world. Murder, mass genocide, judgment and persecution... most of it was because of a distorted or perverted view on what their faith actually believe. However, I believe that religion, was key in setting a standard for morality. I believe that civilization would not have ever taken place if there was not a common belief with set standards of ethics.

The question of civilization and "set standards of ethics" are different questions, as any cultural anthropologist will tell you. With the advent of the Agricultural Revolution, the expansion of tribal hunter-gatherer societies (which manage to have standards of moral behavior just fine, thankyouverymuch) into ever-expanding cultural groups we now call civilizations (based on the word for citizen, which itself comes from the word for "city-dweller") was more or less inevitable. This still has little to do with the idea of moral group-think.

There is little doubt that religion, over the course of evoutionary timescale, played a role in giving a competitive edge to tribes which had such a means of encoding and enforcing standards of behavioral norms and group identity, as groups that lacked such cohesive behaviors were easier to wipe out, in competition between tribes... some have even posited that there may be a "gene" for tendency toward religious feelings in the individual, though I find that factor unnecessary in light of the memetic effect of transmitted culture (see Pinker's The Blank Slate for some discussions of these effects, if you like). But as discussed, and as you seem to agree, it often causes more harm than good when applied on the scale of entire nations, which is why pluralism is a good thing!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 11:28 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:21 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I heard someone refer to the "golden rule". I am sure you know that that was a teaching of Jesus Christ. To "do unto others what you would have done unto you". That in itself is a standard of ethics that even atheist tend to appreciate. Almost every nation has laws that are fundamentally built around religious codes of ethics. Doesn't mater if it is Christians, Muslim, jewish, ect.

Jesus plagiarized:

Ancient Egyptian: "Do for one who may do for you, that you may cause him thus to do." The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant, 109 - 110 Translated by R.B. Parkinson. The original dates to circa 1800 BCE and may be the earliest version of the Epic of Reciprocity ever written.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc2.htm

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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17-10-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 08:59 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  How does an atheist sin? What is right and what is wrong?

I don't sin. To "sin" is to violate a rule established by your god. I don't live in his house (he's imaginary), so his rules don't apply to me.

In my house, I set the rules. Some of my rules are moral (don't hit/hurt another person in the house) and some are procedural (don't wear shoes, put the dishes in the sink after dinner, etc.). Sins as defined in the Bible fall into both categories.


"What is right and what is wrong"--that's the province of ethics, which explains and justifies actions on a moral basis, usually by examining the amount of harm versus good an action does (and pretty much every action has a mix of harm and good). There are some things the Bible calls sins, such as murder, that I agree are immoral. I follow those rules, not because god said to, but because I agree that murder is immoral based on my own ethical analysis. Other things the Bible calls sins, such as working on the Sabbath or eating pork, are procedural and can be discarded as not applying. And for some sins that fall into the moral area (such as calling homosexual activity an abomination), the Bible's ethics are not supportable by reason or biology, so I also discard the notion that these are sins.

Our ethics and the laws based on them reflect human evolution as social creatures who need to be able to cooperate, compete, and reproduce, and so ethics and laws are relative (not absolute), fluid, and adaptable, and vary at the individual level.
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17-10-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
At work.

Sorry I can't reply more 'closely' .

Reality DOES NOT CARE.

There might simply be a rock drifting through space at astronomical speeds who's path just happens to intersect with that of Earth at some point in the near or distant future.

If it happens sooner than later? That's all she wrote.

Barring building an Orion asap? We are joining the dinosaurs.

'Sin' and your words to tie such into 'Right' and 'Wrong'? As mentioned before, social constructs from and for a social species.
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17-10-2015, 11:29 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:24 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Interesting. Please explain. At what point did primitive apes begin to establish a moral code?

If you're genuinely curious to know, you can read The Bonobo and the Atheist, by renowned primatologist Frans de Waal.

Or this article about it:
http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/...ty_animals

Or this video about it:



"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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