Theists must think we're complete morons
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17-10-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
I have to admit this is very interesting.
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17-10-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
At work.

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17-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So even among atheist there is no true standard of what is truly right and what is truly wrong.

You're starting to get it. All morality, including Christian morality, is both relative and subjective.

(17-10-2015 10:45 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Am I a sinner because I like to eat ribeye steak that was raised on a farm and killed on an assembly line? If so, who are you to judge? Under what reason can I be judged?

We each make moral judgements based upon our own moral frameworks. Just because morality is neither objective nor absolute does not mean that our judgements are invalid. It only means that they are personal.
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17-10-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:33 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  I have to admit this is very interesting.

I agree it is fascinating. You might also enjoy this lecture by the author of The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt, a book my mother-in-law sent me a couple of years ago, which explains why different types of brains see moral questions based on a different set of standards (or rather, the two major groups will weigh the five elements of moral thinking with distinctly different value).

His videos about the book's ideas are here:

About the Moral Matrix:




About the origins of morality and groupthink (it's 90 minutes long, though, but worth watching).

The Groupish Gene: Hive psychology and the Origins of Morality and Religion



"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2015 12:32 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

<needlessly antagonistic post edited>

Couple of things:

1) simply because life is not eternal does not mean that it's meaningless. Indeed, one can argue that it is the period at the end of the sentence which helps give it meaning.

2) A society in which anything goes is not a society that will last long. If you tried to enact your own utter amorality, then eventually the people around you will recognize the danger you present to them and band together and take action against you, such as incarceration or simply beating the snot out of you.

This is why we raise our children to not act out the idea that anything goes: because it is for the good of everyone to cooperate and compromise.
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17-10-2015, 12:35 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 10:58 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  You are missing the point that I am trying to make? How are atheist different from theist when it comes to the inability determine what is right and what is wrong? If there is no God or heaven or hell, and we are all inevitably meeting the same fate no mater how we live our lives then what is the point? Why live a "good life"? Why not just do whatever you want when you want? Who cares if it harms others if we will eventually cease to exist anyway?

And to answer the second part of your question, I don't go around murdering, raping and stealing because those things contradict my values. As a rational person, I realize how I act and what I do affect my life and my happiness. So I don't do things that would contradict my chosen values, values chosen according to an objective standard. Objective in this case means not dependent on my or anyone else's feelings or wishes or likes or dislikes.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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17-10-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(16-10-2015 11:15 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  I think one of my favorite (in the "that's so awful it's astounding") theist arguments is the "You just want to sin" argument.

Aside from the obvious complete denial of someone's own words, and the fact that Christianity is set up in such a way that we can sin all we want and then just go "Hey, sorry" and be forgiven, it begs one very important question; just how stupid to theists think we are?

"Don't do this list of things under these circumstances for roughly seventy years, and recieve complete and total bliss for literally forever, which makes said seventy years look like a fraction of a blink of an eye. Do this list of things under these circumstances and be sent to unimaginable torture for literally forever." Who the hell picks the second option on that? Who on Earth would seriously willingly pick eternal pain instead of eternal happiness, all for just the tiniest amount of time doing some specific things that presumably pale in comparison to said eternal happiness?

I know we like to joke around about how oh yeah bacon is totally worth eternal torture but we only say that because we're joking and we know the threat doesn't actually exist anyway. It's like a kid coming up to us and threatening to sic his pet t-rex on us if we don't give him our toy car. Sure we're going to joke about that, it's completely ridiculous, but if there was any actual chance he actually had a t-rex at his beck and call the kid would get the toy, it's not worth it. You'd need to be a total moron to pick your brief, so-so happiness over much, much longer, much, much better happiness. Except the Christian's threat makes a t-rex look like a pet mouse lemur.

(For the record, this is also a problem I have with any and all "deal with the devil" storylines in anything. Nothing you're trading for is worth it, why the hell are you doing it? )

If anything, I'd think "sinning" as an atheist would be a pretty good indicator you're sincere when you say you don't believe, cause no one in their right mind would through away billions of trillions of millenia of heavily bliss just for seventy years of Earthly pleasures.

Then again, we're denying that so totally obviously obvious presense of gawd, so maybe they think us being complete idiots isn't a baseless idea.

And yeah, I know Christian arguments never make sense, this is just ranting on a specific gripe for me.
I really like your post and I am theist.
My favorite part is when you say how theists accuse atheists in wanting to sin while theists themselves want to sin and do sin.
Again, great post. Thumbsup

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17-10-2015, 12:46 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.
Yes!!

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17-10-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.

No. Right and wrong don't really exist. The only thing you are able to "tell" is what you prefer.
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17-10-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Theists must think we're complete morons
(17-10-2015 01:03 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 11:05 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I am able to tell what's right from what is wrong.

No. Right and wrong don't really exist. The only thing you are able to "tell" is what you prefer.
I agree. Right or wrong do not exist. But there are right choices and wrong choices
Right choice is what leads you and others away from self-destruction.
Wrong choice is what leads you and others towards self-destruction.

What do you prefer? this is the question!

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